Re: FAQ Recording HD

[mfabien]

57U, we are very fortunate to have you as a moderator in this Forum. Your expertise is appreciated by all. I'm not at all comfortable in questioning your calls but, with your permission, I would like to prompt you to question some of your explanations in the

FAQ "Recording HD" post.

First off, I was one who also thought that a PC was the greatest enemy for the HDCP protocol because a computer is the one way (that I know off) which could be used to hack the HDCP software. Well I learned from posters in a Forum in France the a PC does indeed figure into the picture. New graphic cards do offer DVI connection with the HDCP integration. See The Radeon 9800 series graphic card for one at http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9800/radeon9800pro/specs.html

Therefore, it appears that a PC can be used to record HD programs.

The FAQ explains the protocol flags as:

"Flags:

HD programmes come with three possible “flags”. The flag indicates what you can do with that

programme, from a recording standpoint.

1. Record Freely: This self-evident flag means that the programme may be recorded in HD on any

device, as much as you want. This flag appears on OTA-type station programming.

2. Record Once: This flag will allow you to record the programme once, but you cannot then make a

copy of this programme. Since PCs are not “copy compliant” devices, you cannot record these

programmes onto a PC – even once. The flag appears on “premium” cable or satellite programming.

3. Record Never: This self-evident flag means that the programme cannot be recorded at all. This

flag appears on PPV programming."

Silicone Image, one of the creaters of HDCP says (see: http://www.siimage.com/pdf/223300.pdf )

Page 1: "HDCP is not designed to prevent copying or recording, nor will it away with "time-shifting" (taping of TV programs to pause live video or to enable you to view programs later). The ability to do these things has revolutionized TV viewing. People want these features, and the capabilities will only improve...
...Your home-theater system can implement any kind of copy protection it needs. It might allow (see page 2) unrestricted copies, a limited number of copies, or no copies at all.

The use of the word "Copy" could be a better word than "Record" in the FAQ to explain the flags.

It is my understanding, from the explanation by Silicone Image above, that a DVR will always be permitted to record (with an HDCP approved DVI or HDMI connection). Once recorded however, the ability to playback or archive to another device may vary depending on which flag is used.

Regarding this topic, in your post http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showpost.php?p=74392&postcount=16

you say: "Your TV is not the concern. The device doing the recording is what matters, as long as it has a set of component video outputs, you'll be fine. See the FAQ on Recording HD."

May I direct you to the Silicone Image document again where it is plain to see that TV's will have DVI incorporating HDCP and from the different figures in the document you see that display Monitors (and TV's) are very much in the picture. And if you trust Alex Gibson
(see:http://www.hdtvbuyer.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=27764 ) he says: "This content protection is absolutely pointless if legacy systems using component video outputs can still be used."

Back to the Silicon Image document, I suggest reading paragraph in the center column with the heading: "Adding HDCP to a product".

The FCC has yet to impose a deadline on the exclusive use of DVI (or HDMI) but it is logically something coming. And by the same logic there could be a time when Component Video connections are rendered useless and a service call may become required to install a DVI/HDCP connection. But we may be a few years away from all of this.

[57U]

Thank you for your comments. I will let others comment too, before either altering, or adding to the FAQ.

I prefer to use the word "record" rather than "copy". They have different "connotations" in that the word "copy" implies that you already have "something" in your posession to copy, while "record" implies no "posession".

Also, I will stick to my point about component video inputs on the TV being "OK". The FCC has so far ruled against "downrezzing" on component video, and we hope will continue to do so. Therefore, people with these "legacy" products will be OK. Worst case scenario is that component video will be "downrezzed" to perhaps 480P.

Again, this will not affect the actual "recording", just the output from that recording device.

Once recorded however, the ability to playback or archive to another device may vary depending on which flag is used. I don't believe you're correct - the flag will affect the recording itself. If the flag says "record never" you won't be able to record in the first place. Only the "other" flags will affect the output.

[mfabien]

Thank you for your comments. I will let others comment too, before either altering, or adding to the FAQ.

I prefer to use the word "record" rather than "copy". They have different "connotations" in that the word "copy" implies that you already have "something" in your posession to copy, while "record" implies no "posession".

Also, I will stick to my point about component video inputs on the TV being "OK". The FCC has so far ruled against "downrezzing" on component video, and we hope will continue to do so. Therefore, people with these "legacy" products will be OK. Worst case scenario is that component video will be "downrezzed" to perhaps 480P.

Again, this will not affect the actual "recording", just the output from that recording device.

I don't believe you're correct - the flag will affect the recording itself. If the flag says "record never" you won't be able to record in the first place. Only the "other" flags will affect the output.

Correction, flag is "Copy Never" not "Record Never".

Your first point and last point are related. Your position is that "Never Record (copy)" will result in not being able to record on the DVR in the first place. I differ in my interpretation of the "Never Copy" flag. HDCP will be able to discern if the data transmission goes to a DVR or not. From there HDCP will be able to determine if the transmission is between DVR and the TV, in which case there should be no problem, or if the transmission is between the DVR and another device capable of copying. Note that each device identifies itself within the keys...serial number and all. To deny this is to deny the effectiveness of time-shifting offered by DVR's and that is not the intention of Silicone Image. I invite you to contact them.

[57U]

The "copy never" flag should be "record never" I make no apologies for my preference for the word "record". Some people may think this is semantics. There will be some premium HD programming - PPV for example - that you will not be able to record when so flagged, nevermind copy.

[mfabien]

The big question is this,

With the greatest restrictive HDCP flag, will the program, movie, be recordable for viewing later via a DVR equipped with a DVI or HDMI connection? My interpretation of the protocol as redacted in the Silicone Image pdf file referred to in this thread, is YES. And that includes PPV HD movies in my view. Again anything to contrary diminishes the value of a DVR and renders useless the requirement of a DVI (or HDMI) equipped HDTV, at least from an HDCP standpoint (rather than a PQ for digital display TV's).

[mfabien]

Trying to get an answer from Silicon Image...will advise.

[mfabien]

Yesterday I spent a few hours searching for answers on HDCP vs the use of a DVR.

It is clear from what I read that DVR's are quite new and DTCP and HDCP protocols were developed before DVR's came to existence. What was known, however, was the existence of D-VHS tape and Computer access via IEEE 1394 Firewires.

There is something I found which may provide some light but I believe this position was in relation to DTCP devices. I found the article at:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1231546,00.asp

Early in the article it says: "...CGMS-D has not yet been fully defined, and may ultimately be absorbed into other content-protection technologies. But in either case, it'll most likely be used to protect the digital outputs of devices like DVD recorders, DVRs and digital TVs."

...and near the end of the article, I found the following:

RECORDING CONTROL AXIOMS: The final three axioms determine how CPSA-compliant recorders use Copy Control Information (CCI) to enforce copy-protection rules. CCI usually consists of a string of bits contained in the CMI that define how many authorized copies can be made. The term "digital CCI" refers to copy-control bits contained in digital CMI, and "watermark CCI" refers to bits stored in watermark CMI.


Recorders must use Copy Control Information to decide whether to allow recording to occur. Before honoring a request to duplicate a piece of content, compliant recorders must first examine the information contained in digital CCI (for encrypted content) or watermark CCI (for unencrypted content). The recording can be made only if authorized by the CCI.

10. CCI must be updated before creating a copy. Compliant recorders must update watermark or digital CCI, when present, before copying a piece of content. This is necessary to decrement the number of remaining generations of copies authorized by the CCI.

11. Compliant recorders do not need to examine or update CCI when making temporary copies that cannot be copied to other devices. Compliant recorders are allowed to make short-lived images that will be used only for time-shifted viewing, and which can never be played on any other device. Creating such a recording does not require compliant devices to check or update digital or watermark CCI, and can be done regardless of any restrictions on copying protected content.

It would therefore appear that using D-VHS tape or a computer HDD, time-shifting would be allowed but for a set period of time. A DVR is a different device which could be considered "localized" and not transportable or transferable to a network.

Yesterday I did send e-mails to different organizations, such as Scientific Atlanta, Silicon Image, Digital-CP.com and Gefen.com
The latter is involved with Video cables and did respond to my e-mail. And invites me to provide a link to this Forum. So I will do that and hopefully he will comment but his answer was not encouraging.

[mfabien]

Here's the answer from Hagai Gefen from Gefen inc. after reading this thread:

Hi Michel;


The discussion in the forum is very high level and intelligent and I appreciate the reading. The HDCP implementation is complicated and comprehensive on the specification side, but not so practical.


I only reflects my sense of it that manufacturers as well as software providers will find the HDCP somewhat hindering in the practical sense and they will be reluctant to implement HDCP to the letter.


This will leave your original question if recording or copying will be allowed if the "Recording Never" bit is set unclear. I'll say again that in the end only the software implementation of the flags will count and determine what happens to the ability to record to the DVR. The notes about being able to playback in component is also correct as well as the ability to playback at 480P in digital which is part of the HDCP implied intent.


At the moment, the DVR will work for the foreseeable future regardless on what the HDCP implementation says, until more practical methods of testing the HDCP compliance is available as well as enforced.


Regards


Hagai Gefen
Gefen Inc..
I'm adding the url to Mr Gefen's website which discusses Video cables:
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/support/dvihdmi.jsp

[mfabien]

The question asked was as follows:

HDCP and DVR's
Many of us HDTV enthusiast participate in HDTV Forums to exchange information. Digital Video Recorders (DVR) are becoming very popular as cable and satellite providers get in position to offer them. One such DVR, which I purchased, is the Scientific Atlanta SA8000HD which has a DVI output connection.

From your knowledge of the HDCP protocol, a cable service user with the above DVR connected to an HDTV via DVI, will the user be able to record programs and movies without restrictions including those flagged with the "Never Copy" flag for playback purposes? In it's HDCP file at http://www.siimage.com/pdf/223300.pdf Silicon Image clearly states the protocol "will not do away with time-shifting to enable viewing programs later." Therefore the HDCP protocol should be designed so that it may differentiate between a DVR and a device capable of generating a copy or copies such as a computer HDD.

Will Canadian Digital Telivision copy FCC rulings to become effective July 2005? And, can you provide an answer to the above?

The answer you can read at: http://206.191.60.3/index.cfm?page=replies&t_id=338&bg=2&CFID=5856009&CFTOKEN=104598 is copied here:

Comment from Admin.

I will seek the advice of my expert in this but offer the following comment in the interim.

1. HDCP is a protocol to ensure security between the DVI/HDMI port on the STB (of equivalent) and the related port of the device (such as the monitor) receiving the data. Thus non-HDCP devices will not receive data, but HDCP does not itself restrict the use of data in valid devices.

2. The rules for HDTV broadcasting in Canada are actually set by Industry Canada (technical ones) and the CRTC (programming ones.) CDTV makes recommendations to both, on behalf of its members and the industry. Currently, CDTV is recommending to the authorities that all DTV transmissions carry a minimum set of PSIP and that the Broadcast Flag be implemented to protect the broadcast content form further unauthorized broadcasting, while respecting the individual users rights to view it. Their may be some discussion here, as the Copyright laws in the USA and in Canada are somewhat different, but Canadian broadcasters certainly support the principle of restricting the unauthorized use of content for further disrtribution.

Watch this space for further news.

I do hope that his stated position stands..."restriction concerns further unauthorized broadcasting". I'm also understanding that it's not HDCP that will restrict, it's the software incorporated by broadcasters having to do with the copy flags. In addition it's worth paying attention to his paragraph 1 and again this implies the importance of having DVI or HDMI down the road to receive HD transmission of HDCP protected content.

Note on CDTV:
CDTV is a not-for-profit Canadian TV industry organization, dedicated to providing expert information to you as we make the transition to HDTV in Canada. Our members include Broadcasters, Set Manufacturers, Content Producers, and Satellite and Cable Companies working in unison to provide you with information to help you in the transition to the world of High Definition Television.

[mfabien]

Have requested a statement from the FCC on this matter. They have a link to this thread.

[mfabien]

The following report illustrates what is involved with the transmission of digital broadcast signals:

http://www.hpaonline.com/files/public/CBHuntFinal.pdf

[mfabien]

...the following FCC document states that Broadcast flag "does not restrict copying in anyway". Later, it says that "If the flag is present, the content can be sent in one of several ways including (1) over an analog output, e.g. to existing analog equipment, or (2) over a digital output associated with an approved content protection or recording technology (this list of technologies is often referred to as "Table A"). See page 3 at:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-240759A1.pdf

From the above, it would appear that an old STB without DVI or HDMI will be able to get the signal through Component. But I suspect that the day will come when one who uses a STB with a DVI or HDMI and connects this STB to an HDTV with a Component cable rather than DVI or HDMI the signal will get encrypted or downconverted to 480i. And that would appear to be consistent with the previous post with the MPAA document and the reply post from the Administrator of CDTV in their Forum (linked in the CDTV post).

[mfabien]

In reference to my last post where I said that the continued use of Component cabling between STB and HDTV would be conditioned by having an old STB which would not incorporate a DVI/HDCP output,

The following comes to mind, (posted this before but in better context now) in early summer CBSHD broadcasted the James Bond movie "Tomorrow Never Dies". I had programmed the movie for recording, viewed a few minutes to see all was well and went to bed. Next morning I wanted to playback the movie and much to my surprise it was gone...erased!

I called my cable provider, Videotron, and while I was online, the CSR's boss was on the phone with Scientific Atlanta and the latter was asked if the loss event was caused by the fact that the SA8000HD's DVI/HDCP output was not active. The answer from SA was a definite yes, without hesitation.

Late summer, CBSHD re broadcasted "Tomorrow Never Dies" and to me it made sense that CBS was conducting a second test with the "Never Copy" flag (why would CBS run the same movie inside of 3 months?). So this time, eventhough my DVI/HDCP output was still not active, I wanted to follow this event in great detail. So,
1. I programmed the recording from the IPG
2. During broadcast I made sure the movie was being recorded
3. After one hour and beyond, I notice something different and that was that contrary to all other recordings, when I pressed "Pause" I saw a red line replacing the standard green line for all but the last hour of recording. To me that sounded like except for an immediate time-shifting, I would once again lose the recording.
4. I tricked the system by stopping the recording in the last minutes before the scheduled end time and "saving" the movie. Thus I was able to save the entire movie and played it back several times after.

The above event tells me that the MPEG Transport Stream Processor (see:
http://www.hpaonline.com/files/public/CBHuntFinal.pdf page 13 of 20 ) determines if a device is compliant or not and that implies the need for a STB, which incorporates a DVR, to have an HDCP active software connection (mine is not active yet).

[mfabien]

I've asked Toshiba if they can have their service people, on a client call, install a DVI/HDCP input on their HDTV's manufactured without one. And if so, the approximate cost in both Canada and the USA.

[mfabien]

They were confused with my first question. This morning I re phrased the question and hope to get an appropriate answer. It is clear that my knowledge is different now than it was at the time I wrote my first message.

[mfabien]

The following e-mail sent to Mr. Gefen:

Getting feedback from different sources, CDTV, MPAA and Silicone Image sent me an e-mail with the following paragraph:

"The output port and associated firmware is responsible to manage the HDCP "downstream" connection, so that content is allowed to flow out only to an approved ("authenticated") HDCP Sink or Repeater. That firmware must take into account flags, DTCP coding, etc, to decide if the output stream needs to be encrypted." (bold characters by myself)."

Therefore, I sense that a person with an HDTV manufactured without a DVI/HDCP input but who wishes to use a new cable or satellite STB with DVI/HDCP output may have a problem. Thus the question becomes, how can an HDTV owner get to use the new STB, must there be:

· A service call by the TV's manufacturer to install a DVI/HDCP input in the back panel?

· Can there be a device between the STB and the TV that will convert the DVI to Component (digital to analog) and be able to formally identify the TV as required by HDCP?

Your reply will be greatly appreciated.

Michel Fabien

Answer as follows:

Michel –

The information you stated here is correct, if the source requires HDCP, the monitor must support it. I would contact the television manufacturer to see if the television is HDTV ready, and has the capability of being HDCP compliant.

Thank you,

Gefen Sales

[57U]

Recent Business Week Article.

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/oct2004/tc20041015_4243_tc024.htm

[mfabien]

Information gained since starting this thread has cleared at least the issue involving the use of Component vs DVI to connect a STB and an HDTV. And the conclusion there is this:

Once Content flags get used by the Network Companies, those with STB's that do not have a DVI (or HDMI) may continue to use a Component connection. But those with a DVI output at the STB will need to connect this to the TV's DVI input or when Content flags are used to restrict or limit copying, the data will be encrypted and not viewable.

As for DVR's, nobody involved with HDCP was able to provide me with clear answers and Scientific Atlanta did not respond to my e-mail. And I suspect that testing under flag conditions is inconclusive at this stage.

For that reason, my sense is that the DVR will do it's job and record a flagged movie or program so long as it conducts itself as the STB that it is. I fully expect that even with an active DVI output connected to the TV's DVI input, a "Never Copy" flag by the broadcaster if the TV is off (or maybe tuned to a different channel) during recording, then the data will be erased when attempting to playback. I simply think that HDCP was not developed with DVR's in mind. And I saw, in an email, the confusion in the mind of the official from Silicon Image when he told me this:

"I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking whether a DVR is allowed to have a DVI/HDCP input and record material ("time shifting") for playback through a DVI/HDCP output connection, yet without "archiving"? HDCP does not permit copying of content once it is encrypted and transmitted over an HDCP-protected link."

Whether one is using Component or DVI between the DVR and the TV, if after one hour of recording if you press the "Pause" button and you see the gradual change of the recording line from green to red, you can assume the Never Copy flag is present and if you wish to save the data on your HDD, then keep the TV tuned to that channel and before the recording "End Time" is reached (before last minute) stop the recording and save. But I would expect the line to remain green if you are connected via DVI and remain tuned to the end of the movie.

[mfabien]

57U,

I see that we are the only two members who have contributed to this thread. But at this time, there are have been 516 viewers so this may be of interest to more people than us two.

This Forum can be put to good use when Broadcasting Companies start putting content flags. May I suggest that you put up 2 stickies,

One Sticky in the IEE 1394, DVI etc Folder for those who lose access to a movie because of encryption. And the poster would be asked to specify:

- Are you with a cable or satellite provider? Which one? What City?
- What program or movie did you attempt to view, on what time and day and what Network Company?
- Does your STB have a DVI or HDMI output and is that used to connect to your TV with the same type of input?
- In the course of the movie, did you leave the movie by either changing the channel or shutting off the TV for a time period?

Another Sticky in the DVR Folder for those who lost data scheduled for recording. And the poster would be asked to specify:

- Are you with a cable or satellite provider? Which one? What City?
- What program or movie did you attempt to record, on what time and day and what Network Company?
- Is your DVR connected to your HDTV with a DVI or HDMI cable?
- Did you schedule the recording in advance or in the course of viewing the movie?
- Did you tune the TV to the movie at all and view it? All of it or part of it?
- Did you notice the green recording line gradually change from green to red (pressing Pause or Rewind) after the first hour?

At the end of each Sticky, you can asked readers to post if something similar took place or if in their case they were successful what, if anything, did the reader do differently.

We may be weeks or even months away from the general use of these flags by Broadcasting Companies so you may decide to put it up later or do it now so readers may be on their toes if they start having problems.

[57U]

Michel: Thank you for your suggestions. I'm sure we'll hear from people as soon as they have difficulty recording onto their DVRs, etc. At that time we can put up the stickies you recommend, or perhaps some other form. I will be monitoring the situation, as I'm sure will you.

So far you are the only person to have noticed difficulty and only with the one Bond movie. If it's on again, let us know and I'll set my DVR. Unfortunately, the last time, I believe I was out of town.

[mfabien]

Hi Michael;

Any person with an HDTV display that is not manufactured with HDCP support is basically out of luck. There is no way to upgrade it. I am not aware of any manufacturer offering the possibility.

We have a device that takes DVI and convert it to component, but it only applies to non HDCP compliant sources. Once you are in the analog domain, non of the HDCP flags and coding apply.

I can see where you are going with your question, but I am not sure what we can legally offer to resolve it.

We can possibly built a device that does not encrypt the HDCP upstream. However, if the source STB was HDCP encrypted, we will be breaking the rules of applying the HDCP. down stream to the DVI/HDMI display.

Can you get an official permission to do that? Otherwise, we are all stuck with no support for HDTV displays without HDCP support.

Regards

Hagai Gefen
Gefen Inc.

Those with HDTV's built without a DVI/HDCP device would be wise to hold on the old STB's without DVI/HDCP or should look into OTA as an HD broadcast solution for the next years.

No answer as yet from Toshiba requesting installation (by their service agents) possibility of a DVI/HDCP input on existing Toshiba sets built without one.

[mfabien]

Hello Michel Fabien

In response to your inquiry, our TV product department informs me that you
cannot retrofit a TV to incorporate a DVI input.

Thank you for sending your inquiry.

Regards,

CEG Customer Support

Would be interesting to see a poll on how many Forum members have an

- HDTV without DVI (or HDMI) and a cable or satellite STB without DVI
- HDTV without DVI (or HDMI) and cable or satellite STB with DVI

Can someone do that?

[mfabien]

From the FCC document: From the FCC document: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-240759A1.pdf (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-240759A1.pdf)

When a copy flag is present in the Broadcast, it appears that the demodulator in the STB may send the content over an analog output to existing analog equipment. On page 3 of 4, the following:

""Compliance" refers to what the covered demodulator can do with the broadcast content. If the flag is present, the content can be sent in one of several permissible ways, including (1) over an analog output, e.g. to exxisting analog equipment; or (2) over a digital output associated with an approved content protection or recording technology (this list of approved technologies is often referred to as "Table A")."

Therefore, those with HDTV's built in 2002 or prior may not have to worry after all.

[rudyusmc1980]

Please keep this thread active with any new info you have. I will be on my third model HDTV when the new JVC DCR model ships this winter. No, I am not a rich man, I am a US Marine who saved a few bucks and has had bad luck with the philips LCOS and two JVCs with many dead pixels. the new JVC will have all the digital cable ready stuff, that is why I am getting it, for the 1394 recording port. The JVC has HDMI input, 2 component, 1394 and is rumored to also have an optical audio out to take advantage of the audio in the HDMI.

Recording is definitely something I and everyone I know want. It gets me so mad that the VCR court ruling is not enough to protect the right/priveledge to time shift and record television. No matter the resolution, it is still just television.

[57U]

The right to record/timeshift HD programmes is intact for now and probably will remain so, respecting the various broadcast flags.

See the actual FAQ (in the FAQ section) on "Recording HD" for additional information.