HD dvd player reviews

[wifeB8]

Take a look at what’s happening on the other side of the world. I’m in complete agreement with the article as far as these HD dvd formats not making an impact in North America, but at least they have produced a very reasonably priced consumer grade HD dvd player in a short amount of time.

http://www.connectedhomemag.com/HomeTheater/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=43123

I can’t wait till I can start reading reviews of soon to be released HD dvd players stateside :drool2:

[Matt27]

All in good time my friend:)

[Turboff]

Just make sure you support Blu-ray. HD-DVD is only beneficial to the corporations since it's less expensive to produce the discs than Blu-ray. Blu-ray is the consumer's medium, with a lot more storage and less compression.

[Ratman]

OTOH... there's a good chance that Blu-Ray may not be backward compatible, therefore making it only beneficial to the corporations since that will lock their video releases to their player/format.

Similar to the DVD-A/SACD 'tug-o-war'. But at least these machines are backward compatible.

[Turboff]

Well, Blu-ray discs won't play in existing DVD players, but existing DVD discs will, for 100%, play in Blu-ray players.

[Ratman]

It's understood that HD/Blu-ray DVD's won't work in convertional players. Backwards compatibility is not a requirement with Blu-ray. So... maybe 99%, they have demo'ed prototypes.

2.4 Will Blu-ray support playback of DVDs?


Yes, several leading drive manufacturers have already demonstrated drives for consumer products such as video recorders that can read and write DVD and Blu-ray Discs, so you don't have to worry about your existing DVD collection becoming obsolete. Although there is no requirement for Blu-ray recorders to be backwards compatible with DVD, the format is far too popular to not be supported. With the vast amount of Blu-ray recorders that will be coming out, this will be an important feature for consumers.

[soze]

THEY ARE COMING -!!! great like chocolate cake!

[Matt27]

That's simple, because blu ray uses a blue laser for HD, and a red laser for SD dvd.

Simply put, if you use a blu ray dvd on a normal dvd player it will not work because the laser is only red.

I personally think Blu ray will be the clear winner, more space for thier discs so you can get more out of the picture and sound,HD dvd is limited, meaning blue ray can have better quality and more flexible options because of more disk space.

If we are lucky and a format wins, we may see these new player in early 2005 of the first quarter.

I can't wait:)

[pradike]

Why should anyone support Blue Ray?

It's an expensive "forced" format that isn't supported by any consumer-based groups, Microsoft, nor the HD Council - HD DVD is. Worse yet, Sony is the big pusher of this totally overpriced format - and they have a long track record of creating isolated technology that ends up going away (Betamax, for one).

HD DVD is the only viable solution, and will cost less on both the hardware and DVD sides. That is why it will be adopted more mainstream, and the lower DVD manufacturing cost will also encourage content providers to go that way.

:hyper: :hyper:

[Sheabuff]

Seeing as HD-DVD is still in developement and Blu-ray has been introduced to of Asian friends, I the Blu will take it in the end. We will have to see

[Ratman]

pradike,
I'm with you.

I will agree that Blu-ray has the advantage specification wise, but IMO it's all a strategy by Sony to 'lock in' not only the hardware but also the software.

[Turboff]

I will die before I support HD-DVD.

Plus, Blu-ray wasn't just developed by Sony, but by a multitude of companies. As with the CD (which Philips invented and Sony just helped market), Philips and Sony are the main ones. The CD, by the way, hasn't gone away.

HD-DVD may have already been approved by the DVD Forum, but HD-DVD is just two companies. Blu-ray is supported by a lot of companies, and Sony alone is probably larger than NEC and Toshiba combined. Microsoft may not support Blu-ray openly, but Blu-ray does include the Windows Media Player 9 based specification (VC1).

Last, how can one say that Blu-ray is overpriced when it's not even out yet? I doubt whether Blu-ray movies will be much more expensive than some current DVDs. They want the format to succeed, after all.


The Blu-ray Board of Directors:

Dell
HP
Hitachi
LG
Mitsubishi
Panasonic
Pioneer
Philips
Samsung
Sharp
Sony
TDK
Thomson
20th Century Fox


Contributors:

Canon Inc.
CMC Magnetics Corporation
CyberLink Corp.
Deluxe Media Services Inc.
Digital Theater Systems Inc.
Dolby Laboratories Inc.
Fuji Photo Film Co. Ltd.
Kenwood Corporation
LITE-ON IT Corporation
MediaTek Inc.
Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Co.Ltd.
Moser Baer India Limited
MX Entertainment
Optodisc Technology Corporation
Pulstec Industrial Co., Ltd.
Ricoh Co., Ltd.
Sigma Designs Inc.
Sonic Solutions
Texas Instruments Inc.
Ulead Systems Inc.
Victor Company of Japan, Ltd.
Visionare Corporation
ZOOtech Ltd.


Members:

Almedio Inc.
Alpine Electronics Inc.
AMC Co. Ltd.
ArcSoft Inc.
Asahi Kasei Microsystems Co., Ltd.
ATI Technologies Inc.
Ciba Specialty Chemicals Inc.
D&M holdings, Inc.
Daewoo Electronics Corporation
Elpida Memory, Inc.
ESS Technology Inc.
Expert Magnetics Corp.
Funai Electric Co., Ltd.
Imation Corp.
Infomedia Inc.
InterVideo Inc.
Konica Minolta Opto Inc.
Lead Data Inc.
LEADER ELECTRONICS CORP
LINTEC Corporation
Memorex Products Inc.
Mitsui Chemicals Inc.
Mitsumi Electric Co., Ltd.
Nexapm Systems Technology Inc.
nVidia Corporation
Opt Corporation
Pixela Corporation
Pony Canyon Enterprise
Ritek Corporation
ShibaSoku Co. Ltd.
Shinano Kenshi Co. Ltd.
Sony BMG Music Entertainment
Taiyo Yuden Co., Ltd.,
TEAC Corporation
Teijin Chemicals Ltd.
Toppan Printing Co., Ltd.
Unaxis Balzer AG
Yokogawa Electric Corporation

[Ratman]

Last, how can one say that Blu-ray is overpriced when it's not even out yet?

I don't believe anyone said Blu-Ray is 'overpriced'. What has been stated in various articles is that HD-DVD hardware and software manufacturing costs are less.

Ultimately, that gets passed on to the consumer.

[deckard]

expensive "forced" format
Says who? Toshiba?
isn't supported by any consumer-based groups
Wrong, is the dvd forum a consumer-based group?
Worse yet, Sony is the big pusher of this totally overpriced format
Wrong again, your opinion but it's highly misinformed.
HD DVD is the only viable solution
See above
will cost less on both the hardware and DVD sides. That is why it will be adopted more mainstream, and the lower DVD manufacturing cost will also encourage content providers to go that way.
Again, according to Toshiba?

[deckard]

Love em or hate em Sony's PS3 Game machine/Blu-ray player will be FAR cheaper than any Toshiba or Sanyo HD DVD machine.

[deckard]

AVS Forum members, a consumer-based group, IMO heavily favor Blu-ray after reading all the available facts.

Even HD DVD supporter Sanyo isn't exclusive;
What's this? (http://www.blu-ray.com/images/ceatec2004/ceatec_68.jpg)

[Ratman]

It's forced by the 'big manufacturers' riding in Sony's coattails. Existing plants will need to retool all of the their engineering facilities for Blu-Ray. Existing facilities are not capable of manufacturing Blu-Ray DVD's.

Blu-Ray is NOT approved/accepted by the DVD Forum.

Sony is the driving force behind Blu-Ray and has the most to gain in profits (especially software).

These are facts...


BTW... other than higher storage capacity, what makes Blu-Ray more desirable over HD-DVD?

[gparris]

I don't like the concept of a special jacket for the HD DVD blu ray, unless that changed.

[Turboff]

Ratman, Blu-ray allows for less compression due to more storage capacity. Less compression = better PQ.
The facilities retooled for DVD a few years ago, and I don't see any harm in doing it again. Plus, the retooling/manufacturing cost is not supposed to be much more, going down to within 10% of DVD once mass-production starts.

gparris, Blu-ray's specification no longer includes an outer, protective cartridge. TDK has invented a material that will actually make Blu-ray discs less vulnerable to scractches than current DVDs.

[gparris]

Thanks Turboff, I thought that changed, couldn't find the information.
Ratman is right, though, about the "Sony Factor" in Blu-ray.

If the DVD Forum can get the HD DVD that is approved to increase its storage space to more closely approximate what Blu-ray has without compression loss, Blu-ray could be a dead issue in the end as the start up for HD DVD will be less (what we are told).

As for Sony, it likes to do things on its own...like MD discs, who has them?
Betamax, a lost cause,too. Sony even tries to push the envelope with its own sound formulas on its players, then adds them, like ProLogic ll, which took longer to get on their receiver/amps than others.
Now, PL llx decoding finally appeared on their 997 model, still missing from the ES line. You cannot buy a DVD player with DVD-Audio on a Sony, only their SACD, which shows you how they behave as a company in joining in.
So why Blu-ray, when its Sony, again, "blowing-its-horn" :whistle: ?

[Ratman]

Ratman, Blu-ray allows for less compression due to more storage capacity. Less compression = better PQ..

Perhaps... But the way I understand it is that both formats will support VC-1(9), MPEG2 and MPEG4.

Don't they all use the same compression techniques regardless of the media/format?

[Splicer]

Can anyone say Beta Max :rofl2: ...It is a known fact that Beta had the superior video/audio reproduction over the VHS format yet which one prevailed?

Personally I think that HD DVD will come out on top but all any of us can do is wait and see what happens... :cheers:

[Splicer]

Seeing as HD-DVD is still in developement and Blu-ray has been introduced to of Asian friends, I the Blu will take it in the end. We will have to see


You can buy HD DVD players NOW for $200 :wow: ...

[deckard]

It's forced by the 'big manufacturers' riding in Sony's coattails.

I see your point, but the (then) BDF applied their spec to the DVD forum and lost out to AOD, which then granted AOD the right to use 'DVD' in the name HD DVD. It was then IMO that the BDF decided to push forward no matter what with or without the DVD forums approval. I believe the BDF felt shortchanged by the apparent Warner/Toshiba alliance in the DVD forum steering commitee.

Existing plants will need to retool all of the their engineering facilities for Blu-Ray. Existing facilities are not capable of manufacturing Blu-Ray DVD's.
It requires a new line, not a whole plant/facility. 09/01/04 - Sony announced yesterday that it has developed Blu-Ray (BD) disc production technology that will be enable the company to produce Blu-Ray discs at half the cost of DVDs. Instead of using glass plates for production as with DVDs, low-cost silicon plates will be used, attributing to the lower production cost. In addition, the production equipment takes one-fifth of the floor space used for the production of standard DVDs. The equipment will cost approximately 300 million yen ($2.74 million USD), and Sony Disc Technology, a subdivision of Sony, will start accepting production orders this fall.
Who knows by the time these formats launch Blu-ray could even be cheaper than dvd to manufacture, an initial investment of $2.75 million is peanuts really.

Sony is the driving force behind Blu-Ray and has the most to gain in profits (especially software).
Same can be said for Toshiba who also hold patents on standard dvd tech. Difference being Toshiba is the driving force in front of who? NEC and more recently Sanyo, as well as the DVD forum. Meanwhile the BDA has the rest of the world's industry support and even some of Hollywood too.

other than higher storage capacity, what makes Blu-Ray more desirable over HD-DVD?
IMO it's Toshiba vs. everybody, not Sony vs. everybody as was the case with BETA. In fact Toshiba looks a lot like the BETA side this time. I just don't think HD DVD stands a chance, however if they bag Warner and Disney then things will be interesting. And if Blu-ray does indeed go the expensive route, I hope it falls flat on it's face.

gparris
The Blu-ray disc cartridge was a good thing because it brought about a super-hard coating by TDK that effectively eliminated the need for a cartridge and gave us a disc with 100 times the scratch-resistance of dvd, virtually immune to fingerprints and smudges as well. Based on the condition of some of the dvd's I've rented lately this is very good news.

[deckard]

Ratman is right, though, about the "Sony Factor" in Blu-ray.
I understand that but everyone fails to see Toshiba's greed and ignorance this time around. Through the first 6 months of 2004 it was basically Toshiba vs. everybody, and I said who the hell are they to go their own way.

[Ratman]

It's a non-issue IMO.

Whichever one prevails... people will but it.

If they both prevail, expect that all Sony owned HD-DVD movies (Sony/Columbia/Tri-Star/et. al.) will be Blu-Ray, all others may/will be HD-DVD.

It could be very ugly for the consumer.

other than higher storage capacity, what makes Blu-Ray more desirable over HD-DVD?

This question was still not answered? Any input?

[LeeS]

Some recent news.

http://businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/oct2004/nf20041027_5297_db002.htm

A lot of the previous discussion is covered in the article. I won't quote from it, if you're interested, read it. :)

Lee

[Ratman]

Thanks LeeS. Good article.

[deckard]

other than higher storage capacity, what makes Blu-Ray more desirable over HD-DVD?
For the last year, currently and at least for the next week...Blu-ray has exclusive Hollywood studio support, HD DVD has none.

[Ratman]

Exclusive???? Where did you see/read that?


And I ask again...
other than higher storage capacity, what makes Blu-Ray more desirable over HD-DVD?

Any thoughts?

[deckard]

CTS and MGM will be Blu-ray exclusives.

[deckard]

Samsung Electronics to Release Blu-ray Disc Recorder by End of 2004
http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/wcs/leaf/CID/onair/asabt/news/324348

Would I buy this product? NO. Does it play BD-ROM? NO. Will it sell? YES.
More importantly if released it will put Blu-ray machines out in our market a year ahead of HD DVD.

[deckard]

Certainly not the NY Times but they do make some very strong points, would this be consumer-based or industry-based support?
Warning contains strong language (http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/bluray-has-already-won-023974.php)

[Turboff]

Ratman, they do both use the same compression technologies (VC-1, MPEG 2 and 4), but the more storage you have, the less you have to compress the picture. If you have 50GB to play with instead of 32, than you may only have to compress 50% instead of 80%. I'm a digital artist, so I have to compress my animations all the time, and there are defintely differences between PQ of animations using the same compressor.

Take, for example, DVD burning. Until recently, all DVD burners supported only single-layer discs, so if you copied a movie on a dual-layer disc, the movie had to be compressed to fit on one layer. Both the original and copy use MPEG 2, but the copy looks and sounds like crap compared to the original. Again, both using the same compressor, but look a lot different due to the original having over 9 GB to work with instead of under 5.

[Matt27]

Ratman, they do both use the same compression technologies (VC-1, MPEG 2 and 4), but the more storage you have, the less you have to compress the picture. If you have 50GB to play with instead of 32, than you may only have to compress 50% instead of 80%. I'm a digital artist, so I have to compress my animations all the time, and there are defintely differences between PQ of animations using the same compressor.

Take, for example, DVD burning. Until recently, all DVD burners supported only single-layer discs, so if you copied a movie on a dual-layer disc, the movie had to be compressed to fit on one layer. Both the original and copy use MPEG 2, but the copy looks and sounds like crap compared to the original. Again, both using the same compressor, but look a lot different due to the original having over 9 GB to work with instead of under 5.

Less compression= Better picture period!!!

Toshiba can try and be the same storage capacity to blu ray, but then again it would look like toshiba is trying to rip off blu ray.

[LeeS]

No one other than Ratman read the article in the link I posted?

Lee

[Turboff]

Lee,

I read that article a few days ago, and it didn't change any of my thoughts about the subject. Just because those studios are signing up for HD-DVD doesn't mean that they won't sign-up for Blu-ray later. The writer of the article (Ronald Grover) seems to me to be a standard business journalist that is just reporting the news with little personal knowledge on the subject.

Blu-ray has too much companies behind it to give up as easily as Grover makes it sound. He says that "Sony may be buying a pair of studios, and it will no doubt get commitment from them for Blu-ray, but that probably won't help it win the hearts and minds of the rest of Hollywood -- or consumers."
Consumers are stupid. They don't decide anything for themselves. They'll simply buy whatever comes out popular. Sony doesn't have to worry about buying the hearts and minds of consumers; all they have to worry about is Hollywood, and this article does not convince me that either format has progressed much.

[LeeS]

I'm not arguing one way or the other, we will have both.

Personally I would like there to be just one, a combo player that will do both and be backward compatible. Not too much to ask for. :)

As far as storage, how much is enough?

Lee

[Matt27]

I for one, am with blu ray.

The PS3 coming with a built in blu ray player is a clear message to us also that blu ray may have a better chance at being the format that dominates, but then again, the PS3 could scrap the idea, and just focus on the gaming aspects of the system.

[Ratman]

From PCWorld:
The reason: when it comes to picture and sound quality, which both consumers and content producers tend to scrutinize closely, there is little to tell the two formats apart. Both deliver digital high-definition images that most users would be hard-pressed to distinguish. HD-DVD has an edge in that it uses more advanced video compression codecs, but backers of Blu-ray Disc are also considering using the same codecs--MPEG4 and Microsoft's VC9--thus eliminating this competitive edge in the future.

However, where the two formats differ is in the area of disc production. HD-DVD discs share the same basic structure as DVDs but Blu-ray Disc, by comparison, uses a new structure requiring new production lines, which will drive up costs, at least initially.

Already, representatives of several content producers, including Time Warner, Walt Disney, and Fox Broadcasting, have been shown the same demonstration and were impressed, according to Hayatsu. "They said ... cost is the most important. If it costs even one cent more then you lose," he says.

From "TimeforDVD.com":
The Blu-Ray Disc uses a cartridge to protect the optical disc’s surface from dust, scratches, and fingerprints. The cartridge should also make this format more durable. A 23.3-GB capacity Blu-Ray Disc, capable of holding a two-hour high-definition program, sells for about $30 (currently available only in the Japanese market).

And...
So how can the OAD’s 15 GB data capacity compared with Blu-Ray Disc’s 23.3 GB still hold the same 2-hour movie in high definition? The answer is higher compression of the video bitstream. Does this mean a loss of resolution of the high definition signal? We don’t know yet, but there is talk of OAD using MPEG-4 video encoding. Optimized for handheld and wireless devices, MPEG-4 also offers some additional optimizations over the current widespread MPEG-2 video encoding, to allow for more efficient compression. In other words, MPEG-4 may be able to encode the same video footage at the same quality as MPEG-2, but use slightly less data.

[Splicer]

No one other than Ratman read the article in the link I posted?

Lee


I read it and it was interesting to say the least. Thanks for that link. :overclap:

[Turboff]

Ratman, those articles are all obviously obsolete since both now use the same compressors and Blu-ray no longer uses a protective cartridge.

[Ratman]

And... if it is outdated, it still shows how Blu-Ray is trying to play 'catch-up' to be competive with a format that obviously can be more easily introduced and compliant with existing technology.

It still boils down to (IMO), that the only thing Blu-Ray has as an advatage is the potential for more storage capacity. Compression may not be an issue (as it pertains to pre-recorded materials).

Why does Sony (and the Sony boot-lickers) insist on promoting this format? Because Sony has the most to gain. If Sony wins... they win.

I guess they didn't learn from the Beta exprience.

Yes... specification wise, Beta was superior and they still lost out. It could happen again...

[Turboff]

Which, IMO, is unfortunate.

Anyways, I suppose that this discussion is over.

[clw2112]

When are either the HD-DVD players and BD Players expected to be released and what kind of cost are we looking at? I was beginning to consider a new DVD player that upcoverts to 1080i, but if these new players will be out failrly soon at a reasonable price that i could wait.

[Ratman]

Afaik... 3q05, ~$1000.00

[LeeS]

Afaik... 3q05, ~$1000.00
Which is right around the corner and $1k isn't bad considering the Onkyo 1000 has a MSRP of $2k.

[Ratman]

Just to quantify... the Blu-Ray recorders were selling in Japan in 2003 at ~$2500 with the discs costing ~$60 per disc. I would assme (hope) that these prices would fall by next year. Who knows...

[deckard]

Toshiba has already unveiled specific plans to launch its HD DVD hardware products.

The company said it plans to begin marketing HD DVD players in the U.S. in October-December of 2005 at a retail price of $999, and it expects the HD DVD group to sell 1 million units of HD DVD players worldwide in 2006 lowering the sales price to around $500 that year.
Link (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Oj6-nwKwz_cJ:sg.biz.yahoo.com/041020/15/3nvyi.html+time+warner+HD-DVD&hl=en)

[deckard]

Here are some quotes from Toshiba HD DVD boss(Yamada)
Yamada said he is fairly confident that about 1,000 HD DVD movie titles will become available in 2006.
"At the moment, Hollywood is leaning toward our side,"
"Since Time Warner has been our friend for a long time, I have no doubt that they will support us,"
"I think the rest (of studios) are swinging in favor of our side,"

He then caps it off with this beauty;
Toshiba acknowledged that it "is not in a position to comment on behalf of the studios."

[deckard]

Toshiba has shown plans for a Hybrid Disc; one side DVD, other side HD DVD. This to me is a brilliant idea because you can buy this disc, play the standard DVD version in your old DVD player, and later on when you decide to purchase a HD DVD machine, you already have the HD version. A great merge product indeed but will they do it? Will the HD DVD side offer the significant jump in quality that we all expect in the first place.
HD DVD/DVD Hybrid (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2fdocs%2f20041008%2fceat10_12.jpg)


Blu-ray announced plans for a BD/CD hybrid, you can bet they will do the same for a BD/DVD dual format as well IMO.
http://www.techjapan.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=604&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/bdcd-dual-format-disc-announced-bluray-beats-hd-dvd-023660.php

[deckard]

Why does Sony (and the Sony boot-lickers) insist on promoting this format? Because Sony has the most to gain. If Sony wins... they win.

Isn't that what all companies in the business of making money do?

Why does Toshiba (and the Sony bashers) insist on promoting this format? Because Toshiba has the most to gain. If HD DVD wins...they win.
Makes sense to me...

And about the "All-important" DVD Forum backing, how many people actually know that Toshiba HD DVD boss Yamada is the chairman of the DVD Forum Steering Commitee?

[Matt27]

My thoughts exactly Deckard.

[Turboff]

You da' man, deckard.

[Ratman]

Isn't that what all companies in the business of making money do?
Of course! C'mon... I understand how business works.

Why does Toshiba (and the Sony bashers) insist on promoting this format? Because Toshiba has the most to gain. If HD DVD wins...they win.
Makes sense to me...
Obviously one side may gain. IMO... if Blu-Ray gets 'canned', the consumer will be the one that is the winner.

And about the "All-important" DVD Forum backing, how many people actually know that Toshiba HD DVD boss Yamada is the chairman of the DVD Forum Steering Commitee?
And? Perhaps that's a good thing. That way the paticipants of the commitee will keep Yamada in line to maintain consistency and compliancy that benefits all manufacturers. And... the consumer.

[yyz28]

With Sony and Microsoft in the driver's seat of this movement, expect Blu-Ray to win. Sony and MS are working together to make sure the future formats of their Video Game machines meet the latest standards. In their case, they can introduce the technology in mass EASILY without having to convince the AV consumer. PS3 and XBOX Next will ship with Blu-Ray Technology from the factory. The storage space will simply make the other format unappealing to game producers.

[Ratman]

I could be wrong, but Microsoft has nothing to gain or lose since they use a different compression technique for HD (WMV9) and still comply with the Red Book standard for DVD.

[LoserBoy]

Microsoft has not said that Xbox 2 (Xbox Next or whatever name you like it to have) will be Blu-Ray. In fact, there's great speculation that because Sony announced as Blu-Ray for PlayStation 3, Microsoft will go the opposite direction and has recieved numerous requests from Toshiba to do just that. But, MS's format decision has been made public, and probably won't be until May 2005 when the system is unveiled at the Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3).