720p games in HDTV, how?

[wp4mxl]

Hi, I have a Samsung txm3097whf, its a 30" 16x9 tv, it supports 480p and 1080i, but no 720p. I love it and the games look awesome at 480p and 16x9.

But, I just bought Street hoops for the XBOX and it supports 720p, when I enabled 720p in the xbox i couldnt see anything it was out of sync because my tv doesnt support 720p natively. I enabled only 480p and 1080i in the dashboard but apparently it only shows in 480p now.

My question is, how I can upconvert the 720p signal to see the games that support HD? I dont have a STB because I dont have digital cable or sat, yet.

[AdminJoe]

Im thinking that you need a STB for this to happen. I will be in the same situation as you if I get NBA2k3 or NHL2k3. My set doesnt support 720p as well.
Now if we could get the 720p signal from the xbox to the STB, then to the tv, it would work. I am currently without a STB at the moment, so I cannot try.

[spetsu]

You would need a set-top box with component inputs. I don't think you cannot output the 720p component signal through RF Cables/Connections.

[dj898]

Short of spending thousands, unfortunately you need the display device capable of 720p. I don't think there's consumer level STB that upconvert 720p of X-BOX component signal to 1080i without going to professional grade devices - read very expensive.

dj

[RashouKaioh]

Upconversion from 720p to 1080i is impossible if your HDTV does not explicity support 720p.

This goes back to what those resolution numbers mean, and the difference between a progressive and interlaced image.

From a technical and numerical standpoint, 1080i would seem to be the highest possible resolution for an HDTV. 1080 scan lines of resolution should be much higher than 720 scan lines, correct? Why is it then that most HDTV's support 480p and 1080i, but not 720p? Those HDTV's that support 720p always support 1080i and 480p, but cost more, what's going on?

An interlaced image is one that is actually showing half of the advertised scan lines at any one time. A progressive image is showing all of the advertised scan lines at any one time.

In essence, a 480p image is equal to a 960i image. A 540p image is equal to a 1080i image. And lastly, a 720p image is equal to a 1440i image, but no advertiser will mention this last fact, as the three most common resolutions of HDTV are 480p, 720p, and 1080i.

From a quality standpoint, 720p is the highest resolution, as it offers the clearest, sharpest display with less flicker than is present at 1080i.

Having a STB digital tuner will do you no good, as it is only good at taking an encoded signal and translating it into a signal your HDTV will understand. The Xbox already outputs signals for your HDTV in an unencoded format, so no STB is necessary.

As an aside, Tony Hawk Pro Skater 4 displays at 720p. It looks sharp, with hardly any framerate loss or jaggies and looks incredible in 16:9. If and when the PS3 supports 720p and 1080i, I'll consider buying it, but until then I'll be an Xbox elitist.

Hope this information helps.

[stevo8040]

Upconversion is possible. My Mits HDTV does not accept 720p, but my Mits STB does upconvert the ABC 720p signal to 1080i to my T.V. Now I'm sure there is some loss of clarity but its still Hi-Def.

As far as doing this with the Xbox, I agree with post above you will need a STB that has Component IN's to do this. This is not yet proven by anyone I know, but it seems that it should work this way. It definately does not work with the RF In's on these HDTV STB's ( I have tried)

Good luck and let us know if you find a way to upconvert the Xbox.

[RashouKaioh]

Your definition of upconversion means converting a 720p/1440i signal to a 540p/1080i signal. Just looking at the numbers 720 and 1080 would offer support for your conclusion.

For myself, I do not define upconversion as going from a higher resolution to a lower resolution, which is why I said it was impossible. If this isn't clear, let me know and I'll try to put this in more simple terms for you.

[ETHunter]

Let's not get carried away with the 720p superiority, Rashou. Your comparing of the two formats is telling only half the truth. A fixed pixel display will have a total pixel resolution of 720X1280, or around 921,000 "dots" making up the entire screen. And because the image is displaying in progressive, those 921,000 dots all paint the screen at the same time.

A 1080i capable display can, when ISF calibrated and given the highest quality video feed, give a resoution of 1080X1920, or around 2,070,600 dots making up the screen. Granted, with it being interlaced you can cut that number in half, but you'll still get over 1,035,000 pixels on the screen at any given time.

Now, factor in that the human eye cannot detect the alternating painting of lines and what do you get? Two formats that both have their strengths and weaknesses. A properly calibrated CRT set will give you the highest resolution at 1080i. However, 720p excells at movement over a 1080i display. So for a video game, sure, 720p will in most cases be the correct format to use, but not because it is of a higher resolution as you say.

Using the theory that 720p is equal to 1440i is flawed in that you're saying your fixed pixel display is equal to a display that would be 1440X2560, or 3,686,400 pixels interlaced. Trust me, that kind of resolution would knock the socks off your 720p display.

The correct terminology then in this debate would not be upconverting or downconverting, but rather just "converting". Both are the only recognized HD formats being used, but each have their strengths...movement with 720p and still images with 1080i.

[mikehbkwm]

ETHunter thank you for saying that at least someone gets it LOL.....

[sanjar]

ET,

I have heard the comment that you made in your last sentence from many people on this forum and many TV salespeople that 720p is great for movement and 1080i is great for still images.

But isn't TV all about movements? Any TV shows, movies, sports ar just about anything on TV will have a lot of slow and fast movements. So which type of TV should I buy? I have posted on this forum my debate on buying a 2004 65" or 73" Mitsubishi or a 61" DLP Samsung. Please help.

[57U]

720P vs 1080i is a never-ending debate. See the following thread for example.

http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2923

If you want to debate the subject further, do it there.

[vortmax2002]

im confused....

1080i is better for "still images"

i have yet to see any programming on my HD that has still images


all images are moving

do you mean the rate of the moving images?

[RashouKaioh]

720X1280=921,600

1080X1920=2,073,600

540X960 = 518,400

How was it that you reached 1,035,000 again?
If my reasoning here is flawed, correct it, I don't need friends who tell me that I'm right all the time.

Making errors isn't new to me, it was because of an error on my part that a friend pointed out to me that I switched from a 480p/1080i set to a 720p capable set.

[57U]

Just in case you're wondering, most RPTVs can only actually display about 1000-1100 horizontal lines - no where near 1920. Even the specs for most RPTVs say 1200-1280 max.

Direct View TVs mostly have 800-900 lines horizontally (specs say 800-1000). That's part of the reason this subject is all over the map, most people have no idea what they're talking about.

Apolgies to anyone out there with 9" guns that can actually see the difference.

[mikehbkwm]

RashouKaioh you keep stating 540p its not. Look at it this way it draws 540 lines at once and then comes back and draws the other 540... now you can say its only 540p which is fine but lets be honest it DRAWS a total of 1080 lines period.....

720p if you broke it back down into a interlaced format it would draw 360 lines first and then draw the other 360 next..... but its 720p so it draws it all at once...

what im trying to say is 1080i is not 540p.... it still draws 1080 lines no matter what even if it doesnt do it all at once... hopes that clears things up for you....

[ETHunter]

Rashou, why would you believe the horizontal resolution would be cut in half? Interlaced only refers to vertical lines. If you think about it, it will make sense. Under optimal conditions, 1080i will provide 540 lines of 1920 pixels.

57U, your point was well taken. Actually, the horizontal resolution can be around 1440. I haven't heard of the 1100 thing, but it wouldn't surprise me if some displays are that low. As I stated earlier, you really need the right conditions to get optimal performance from a CRT display.

And as for the movement stuff, to be perfectly honest, in most cases the differences are so small that it takes a trained eye to know what to look for. However, the differences can be much more noticeable during fast camera swings seen in sports and videogames. So when I talk about motion, I'm talking about camera motion, not the motion of acting and life, so to speak.

Again, not to diss anyone who paid $4,000 for a nice Sammy DLP unit, but 720p isn't superior in every way, shape and form. There's no reason to get into a huff over someone saying 1080i is an upconversion of 720p. BTW, there are a LOT of other reasons you can be happy you bought a LCD or DLP unit over CRT that have nothing to do with a resolution debate. You should really bring up those when talking about HDTV and videogames!

[RashouKaioh]

ET, I asked how you were getting the million pixel #, and you explained. Thanks. Most of the other commentary wasn't necessary for me, but I suspect it was necessary for you.

When I play any videogames that are comprised of still images, I'll use 1080i, thanks to your input.

Huffy is as huffy does.

[nuke61]

If it were as simple as some of you seem to think it is to determine which is the superior format, we'd all be using it rather than having a division between 720p and 1080i. Even the networks don't agree on format.

Yes, "still" vs "motion" refers to relative stillness or motion, not whether a picture is moving or it's not. For instance, a sitcom is going to have, relative to a football game, a fairly still image.

Some of you guys are just too pedantic.

[nuke61]

BTW, you can do this conversion, but like others said, it's expensive. Here's one way:

http://www.laaudiofile.com/keydig.html

[lonestar]

there's really no need to be so goddamn sarcastic and condecending. jesus christ, stop making people afraid to post questions.

[lpowell]

I've tried both 720p and 1080i inputs to my Panasonic PT-50LC13 50-inch LCD RPTV, which has a fixed-pixel 1280x720p resolution.

To my eyes, a 1080i input looks slightly better than a 720p input, even though the HDTV converts both to 720p when it displays it. I suspect the 1080i -> 720p conversion filters out some of the edgy artifacts that still afflict most everything except for pure HDTV signals in native 720p format. (Which I am not yet fortunate enough to receive...)

[RashouKaioh]

there's really no need to be so goddamn sarcastic and condecending. jesus christ, stop making people afraid to post questions.

Sarcastic would assume that there was something of value worth degrading.

Condescending would assume that somebody isn't up to par with where they should be.

I've been on the receiving end of both, and I've doled out my fair share of both. Whining about it will probably not make it stop.

lonestar, if you weren't directing your post at myself, go ahead and ignore this post.

Cheers!

[Barrar]

So if Xbox game is capable of 720P and you have a HDTV capable TV (requiring a STB to see HD televisions), you would have to plug the Xbox into the STB in order to view the HD images?

[57U]

1. I don't think there are any such "inputs" in STBs.

2. You just plug the X-box into the TV.

3. If the game is 720P you need an HDTV that "accepts" 720P. Some TVs do not accept 720P.

[nuke61]

Minor clarification... about "Some TVs do not accept 720P."

True, AFAIK, but more to the point... some TVs convert 720P to 1080i (most do) and some convert 720P to 480 something (P?) and some (Mitsubishi?) don't accept it at all.

[Barrar]

Ok, so my TV would convert the 720P to 1080i?

[57U]

Which Make/Model TV do you have? As stated earlier, some do not even accept 720P.

[Barrar]

KV-40XBR800


Spec's copied from Sony's web page.

720p Input Capable (Converted to 1080i)

[spaceman_spiff]

Originally posted by ETHunter
A 1080i capable display can, when ISF calibrated and given the highest quality video feed, give a resoution of 1080X1920, or around 2,070,600 dots making up the screen. Granted, with it being interlaced you can cut that number in half, but you'll still get over 1,035,000 pixels on the screen at any given time. Thats not quite comparable as mentioned above because the display refresh rate or scan frequency is not considered. Progressive images are displayed at 30 fps or 24 fps, while interlaced display scans at 60 fps. So it comes down to how well can your eyes discern 60 fps and 30 fps or 24 fps. And some people can tell the difference and of course measurement equipment can always tell.
The main advantage that I see with interaced is lesser bandwidth compared to progressive.

Experts, please comment here, critical comments are welcome.
Peace :cheers:

[Jackie-O]

I have a Hitachi 55DMX01WD DLP (720p native) and from personal experience, there is a difference between 720p and 1080i but in my case its in the conversion process.

When I first received the Dish 811 HDTV receiver, it made sense to change the output settings to match my TV (720p). By doing this, all incoming HD signals (1080i or 720p)are were handled by the box and then sent to the TV. In the case of 1080i, the box would do the conversion to 720p. Simple right?

The picture was nice but I decided to play around. I changed the 811 settings to 1080i to let the TV handle the conversion. WOW. What a difference. I wouldn't say "night and day" difference but definitely sharper/clearer. Enough to keep the 811 at 1080i.

Now on to ESPNHD (720p). Considering the .8% of the time, ESPNHD actually broadcasts something in HD :rolleyes: , its done in 720p. Seems to make sense to change my 811 to match the input (720p) right? Wrong. I tried this and again 1080i is definitely clearer. By keeping it at 1080i and putting my Box/TV through a conversion process, 720p>1080i>720p, the end result looks better. You would think 720p>720p>720p would be the way to go.

I'm not saying one is better than the other. In my case, its a matter of what device does a better conversion. Any thoughts? Any other DLP'ers with an 811 out there?

Wait, this is a 720p gaming thread! Well let me say something on TOPIC: "I have chucked my disc read error PS2 and purchased a Halo Green XBox!" WOOT! :rockon:

Rashou, why would you believe the horizontal resolution would be cut in half? Interlaced only refers to vertical lines. If you think about it, it will make sense. Under optimal conditions, 1080i will provide 540 lines of 1920 pixels.

57U, your point was well taken. Actually, the horizontal resolution can be around 1440. I haven't heard of the 1100 thing, but it wouldn't surprise me if some displays are that low. As I stated earlier, you really need the right conditions to get optimal performance from a CRT display.

And as for the movement stuff, to be perfectly honest, in most cases the differences are so small that it takes a trained eye to know what to look for. However, the differences can be much more noticeable during fast camera swings seen in sports and videogames. So when I talk about motion, I'm talking about camera motion, not the motion of acting and life, so to speak.

Again, not to diss anyone who paid $4,000 for a nice Sammy DLP unit, but 720p isn't superior in every way, shape and form. There's no reason to get into a huff over someone saying 1080i is an upconversion of 720p. BTW, there are a LOT of other reasons you can be happy you bought a LCD or DLP unit over CRT that have nothing to do with a resolution debate. You should really bring up those when talking about HDTV and videogames!

[summerfun]

Wow, I read a post from a guy asking about his x-box and this string turned into WWIII.

Not sure if his question was ever answered. It may have been out there somewhere. I got dizzy reading all the arguments.

Simple answer: X-box can output 480p, 720p and 1080i. If your TV can accept all three, you are set. If it cannot, you need to set the x-box up for whatever your TV can accept. The games will default to the correct resolution for your setup. It dosn't matter what your TV displays or converts to. It only matters what signal your TV will accept.

Example: If your TV will only accept 480p and 1080i, then set up your x-box accordingly. All 480p and 720p games will play at 480p and all 1080i games will play at 1080i automatically.

The idea of converting the x-box output through an STB or some other device is not a good solution. Just use what you have.

[DarkAurora]

HDMI and DVI cables support 1080p(I'm not sure if componet cables support 1080p). If the next consoles support 1080p, that'll rule all. The only problem is that I don't think there are any HDTVs yet that support 1080p.

[Lowpro]

Wow, I read a post from a guy asking about his x-box and this string turned into WWIII.

Not sure if his question was ever answered. It may have been out there somewhere. I got dizzy reading all the arguments.

Simple answer: X-box can output 480p, 720p and 1080i. If your TV can accept all three, you are set. If it cannot, you need to set the x-box up for whatever your TV can accept. The games will default to the correct resolution for your setup. It dosn't matter what your TV displays or converts to. It only matters what signal your TV will accept.

Example: If your TV will only accept 480p and 1080i, then set up your x-box accordingly. All 480p and 720p games will play at 480p and all 1080i games will play at 1080i automatically.

The idea of converting the x-box output through an STB or some other device is not a good solution. Just use what you have.

Nice job. :-P I was waiting for someone to give this simple clarification before posting myself.

The key again is in setting the Xbox to what signals your tv will "accept". Your set will take it from there. Unfortunately if your set does not "accept" 720p signals you will have to leave 720p unchecked in the Xbox Dashboard. The Xbox will then output any 720p games at 480p instead. It will not bump them up to 1080i.

-Lowpro