View Full Version : Kf-50xbr800
Sony KF-50XBR800 (http://www.sonystyle.com/home/item.jsp?itemid=51611&hierc=9685x9421&catid=)
This TV looks really interesting. I would love a plasma screen, but can't afford it. This might be a great compromise. Has anyone seen these? How is the quality? Sony lists the price as $4000, has anyone seen it cheaper? Would you purchase this over the 57" projections? Thanks!
Axel
The Grand Wega had a couple of issues last year. No DVI and a lousy black level (more like grey). The DVI issue is resolved and the black level is supposed to be better.
The set has a resolution of 720P and everything is "converted" to this resolution, just so you know (no 1080i picture, although most people would say that 720P is as good or superior).
I have a friend who is going to buy this set in a month or so. The reason he's buying is because the unit is smaller than an equivalent RPTV and it fits into the corner of his living room better (the set has angled in sides and is much smaller than an RPTV). He also has the $.
I think if you have the room, an RPTV is a better choice, dollar-wise and perhaps picture-wise too. I have yet to see the new model.
The lamp needs replacing every few years for a few hundred $, just so you know.
Toshiba is bringing out a simlar unit, with 1080P (yes P), but it's more money still.
Interesting. I don't have the $$ for the Grand Vega, but thought it might be a wiser choice over the KP-57WS500. The wall it will be against is big enough for a 65", but I don't want to go over 57" for both space and $$ issues. What is the best value for the dollar?
Axel, as a "newbie" you may wish to check out our FAQ section, especially the posts
Which HDTV to buy...
How large a TV to buy...
If only I'd have known...
Etc.
A good RPTV represent the best value.
I'm looking at the specs of the KF-60XBR800/60DX100 they have 1.05Million dots res (1366 x 768) on each LCD panel (3).
The XBR says contrast level is improved by 25% for over all better black level
Both have a DVI interface.
So I guess the limiting factor is still the vertical resolution of 768 (720p). However it does have a finer pitch of .155mm compared to .52mm for regular RPTVs. I wonder if the picture quality on a RPTV is still better? Do you think we will actually notice the diff. bet 1080i and 720p? Aren't some broadcasters using 720p? Would the fine pitch and increase contrast level do the trick?
How about scaling would this be a problem too?
I'm really interested to find out. I'm not overly happy with my 65WV700 (hated the warps on the glare sceens of the Mits Plat +, loved the picute though) so now I'm considering exchanging it with a Mits Diamond 65711 or one of the Grand wegas.
Originally posted by Arv
1. Do you think we will actually notice the diff. bet 1080i and 720p? Aren't some broadcasters using 720p? Would the fine pitch and increase contrast level do the trick?
2. How about scaling would this be a problem too?
3. I'm not overly happy with my 65WV700 ...I'm considering exchanging it with a Mits Diamond 65711 or one of the Grand wegas. 1. A 720P signal is considered superior to 1080i by some, so, no, I don't think you'll notice a difference in PQ. ABC uses 720P, everyone else uses 1080i for High Def. The contrast will still not be as good as with an RPTV, so you'll have to check this out yourself.
2. Don't know, but I don't think burn in is a problem with these sets, so you don't need to scale 4:3.
3. November Sound & Vision have a review of this Mits set, comparing it to Toshiba and Sony. The Mits got a very favourable review. It was the first TV they tested that had a picture that was "good" right out of the box.
Yep. I read the review the day before my WV700 was delivered. What they failed to do was to compare the performance of these sets wrt 480i analog sources (VHS, cable, etc...). I think the Mits blew the WV600 away but I wonder if the WV700 upgrades would have helped (Achromatic lenses, UBS, and double A/R coating). Probably not but maybe. One thing I know the quad field focus on the Mits is a good thing to have, if it reallyworks. When I perform the convergence on my 700 I noticed that the +'s (abt 2 rows I think) are a bit blurry.
slc1t
11-04-2002, 11:10 PM
Hearing that the Mits 65711 has a great picture right out of the box was quite a shock for me. Please see a previous post of mine below... You might want to think again or get information on how to fix the picture...
_________________________________________
Read your post and it caught my attention. I recently exchanged a 65905 for a 65711. 65905 had a blinking problem. The 65905 had a great picture. Especially with DVDs. DVDs were so crystal I thought I was right there in the action. I couldn't format the 480p signal -- which i didn't care about anyway.
Got the 65711 and almost barfed when I saw the picture. Everything looks worse. My 65905 was never calibrated - I used avia disk once and saw minor improvements. Cable signal looks very grainy on the new model. Amazingly, DVD 480p is the worst signal on the 65711. Very grainy, ghosting, pixelization like crazy. You can format the 480p image which makes me wonder if mits is messing with the native 480p signal coming from the dvd player. I can't see how a professional calibration will fix the problems I am seeing. I am of the opinion that mits has gone downhill with their image quality. I work in imaging so I see all artifacts. Mits has taken a huge dive in my opinion. I feel bad for them. The best picture I get from the tv is with a single video component input. Yikes. I will be most likely returning this and asking for a hitachi or something different.
Another problem with my set happens when views are switched. For example, tonight I was watching Seinfeld. Alot of view switches. For only an instant before the new view is displayed, there is the new picture with very bad horizontal lines. Took me 2 days to figure out what was bugging my eyes. Now I see it all the time.
Anyone else seen image problems with the new 2002-2003 models? Is there a special service code someone needs to enter in order to enable true 480p??? Shouldn't products be easy to use and shouldn't they get better with time. Sure mits has more features, net command, firewire inputs, but bottom line is they are selling an image and the image is worses than the old 65905. Please help before I switch to a new brand.
Chet in Boise.
If the model that S&V reviewed is the same one that you say is "bad", I'd suggest that your particular set is "bad" (for whatever reason) and not the model line.
slc1t
11-05-2002, 09:07 AM
Actually that is what I thought at first. So I went to a store that sells mitsubishi hdtvs and had them plug a progressive scan dvd into it. Guess what, it looked just as bad as the one I had at home. The model that I looked at was the 65909, the model previous to the 65711.
Has anyone seen a really stellar 480p picture. When you see it you, for a minute, might think you are watching true hdtv. True 480p is not what I saw on the 65909 or the 65711. I had the 65905 in my house for 2 years so I know what the picture quality was like with 480p and it would knock anyone's socks off.
So, please anyone, what am I missing? Until I see differently I will continue to believe that mitsubishi has gotten worse with their picture quality.
Chet in Boise
dyp911e
11-05-2002, 01:45 PM
In response, I have a KF60xbr800 on order from One Call, and got if for less than the advertised price on sony style, so I would imagine the same hold true for the 50". I bought a lot of stuff, so it's hard to say exactly what they're giving me the wega for, but here's the rundown:
60" grand wega 2003 model
stand for gw
samsung sirt165 STB
Sony prog scan dvd player
terk tv55 antenna
audioquest component vid cable
audioquest coax audio cable
70' speaker cable
30' coax antenna cable
total delivered is $6,100, so I would say you can get the 60" for $4,500 k w/o stand, probably the 50" for $3500
hope it helps-no news yet on when they will have these in stock, driving me nuts waiting.
Julian
11-07-2002, 01:46 AM
Hey everybody, just wanted to give everyone the heads up on the new Grand Wega XBR. I finally found one in stock at Circuit City in OH. It is being delivered on the 15th of november and I can't wait to see it. I saw last years models and the contrast (black levels) were poor. This years is said to have a 25% improvement of contrast levels. I recently say this set at a special corporate electronics show in Vegas. the Black level was much improved, still not as good as a crt or rpt, but none the less acceptable. They showed the fifth element on it and the colors were amazing, some dark scenes still had nomonal motion artifacts, however the detail was far superior to any of the rpt we saw. Even the new Hitachi 57xwx20b lacked the detail that the 50'' grand wega had. I already had the sony kv34xbr2 and found the picture amazing, but after seeing this set in action I knew it was time to upgrade. As far as life expectancy goes, the sony rep informed me that the lamp needs to be replaced aprox. every 6000 hours or about every three years at regular use (5-6 hours/day). The good news is the lamp is only $199. It has plenty of imputs, including DVI and 2 wide-band component imputs. To sum this up ------- Contrast 8/10 ------------ Detail 12/10 ------ Design 15/10 ------------- overall performance compared with similarly price rpt 9/10 (only because i really fell in love with the mitsubishi dlp set) The only caution is price-- Circuit City still had the price at 4999.99, so bring in your internet ads.. I just printed out sony's website price and they matched it. Everywhere else i visited were taking pre-orders only. Hope this helps, I'm glad to finally find a good hdtv forum. Later, Julian
dyp911e
11-11-2002, 04:39 PM
Update-cancelled my order w/onecall b/c they expect delivery "sometime before christmas", called my local dealer & they had a demo on display & one in the box. Got a good deal & bought it (the 60"). I saw the demo & it looked excellent to me. Blacks appeared black, and very rich colors. It gets delivered wednesday.
My friend finally invited me over to see his 60" new GW and it is quite nice. I have the following comments after spending a few hours with the set..
1. The setup right out of the box was pretty good. I took AVIA with me and there were some minor tweaks that were quickly done, but on the whole, if someone did not tweak, the set would look quite nice, as long as you stay away from the "vivid" setting that it has.
2. With an LCD based TV like this, no convergence necessary - again great for those who don't like to tweak, however, I did notice a very small amount of colour fringing around white letters. Very much like a well-converged RPTV, but not "perfect".
3. There was a small amount of "screen door" effect from the LCDs, but it was only visible from a short distance. As soon as you were 4-5' away, you couldn't see it.
4. The picture is very smooth and a bit "soft - movie like" because it is 768P all the time. Very nice though.
5. The black level is not as good as an RPTV, but it is very good. I would not object to having this set. Whether I would pay almost twice as much as for an RPTV, well that decision I leave to others.
6. The upconversion of regular cable signals was very very good. No complaints there at all. You would really have to tweak your RPTV and make sure all of the various settings are correct to get a picture this good.
7. There was some "ghosting" visible on the set, but we could get rid of most of it by moving the "sharpness control" up - yes up. We didn't move it up so far that you get the "white ghosting" around black lines, but sharpness was a lot higher than I'd seen it on most RPTVs. Perhaps he'll have to tweak the contrast and brighness a little and this "ghost" will go away completely.
8. The picture is very large, but the "box" that houses the guts is very small. The unit fit into his corner very well, with the "guts" in the corner and the screen just touching each wall. Very nice for those who don't have a lot of room but want a large screen.
9. The menus were clear and easy to navigate. The POP modes were really nice too.
Based on spending a few hours with this HDTV, I can see no drawbacks to this set, if you have the money.
The following link contains information on how to adjust this set:
UMR Does GWII (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196558)
I called Sony and they indicated that this TV kf50xbr800 does support and does 1080i format. Please provide proof if this is incorrect.
Thanks.
It accepts 1080i input, but converts all signals to 768P. These are the number of LCDs and there's simply nothing that you can do about it. There's no choice.
There are no LCDs, DLPs, Plasmas, yet that have 1080 pixels in the vertical plane and all display according to the number of LCDs, mirrors, or phosphors, whatever the case may be.
Most RPTVs take all signals and covert to 1080i (or 480P, 540P, 960i, depending on the set and its options). Some 9" gun RPTVs can do 720P, but those are big $.
(There may be a 1080i plasma, but its probably ~$20k.)
The very new and expensive LCoS sets do 1080P ~$10k
Harvey S
01-28-2003, 11:00 AM
Loss of brightness when not viewing from straight on at eye level is the biggest drawback to RPTVs, imho. Do the LCD based systems such as the 50XBR800 overcome this limitation or do you have to go to plasma screens (or direct view) to get around the problem ?
Harvey S
This set is better than most with off-axis viewing. You need to go see it yourself and decide if it is good enough.
Harvey S
01-29-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by umr
Harvey S
This set is better than most with off-axis viewing. You need to go see it yourself and decide if it is good enough.
OK I did that last night. Unfortunately the GWII was set in a place that made it impossible to get off to the sides very much so I had a hard time testing the horizontal range of screen brightness. They also had it sitting up higher than their WV600/700 RPTVs, which made it difficult to compare the verticals, which are the more important to me. My impression was that the GWII may not be much of an improvement over the WV600/700 in terms of the dropoff in luminance that occurs when you are off to the side or above/below the screen.
The GWII is still a RPTV and ASFAIK the luminance distribution in RPTV's depends on two factors- how much luminance the display device provides and how the lenticular screen distributes it. The lenticular screen properties are probably the same in the GWII and the WV600/700 and so the luminance distributions would be very similar unless the LCD device pumps out a lot more energy to begin with. Can anyone comment on this ?
If the luminance distributions are similar in the GWII and WV600 what reason would I have for getting the more expensive GWII ? (I'm not being argumentative, I'm just asking for someone to give me a reason so I can decide whether to spend about $1000 more for the GWII)
Here are some possible reasons:
GWII is smaller: I'll be putting this in a room that is large enough for either, so the smaller size of the GWII is no attraction for me.
GWII has better picture: As far as I can tell the picture in the 50" GWII and 57WV600 is similar in resolution and the color is better on the crt based system (the GWII had a decidedly blue tone).
GWII is more stable, lower maintence, ages better: Is there a difference in life expectancy or predicted reliability between the two technologies ?
Are there other factors ? I sure would welcome some comments. Thanks.
Harvey S,
You need to go look at it some where else. I believe the light drop off is better for the LCD because the bulb is very bright. My set measures 38 f-L (including screen gain) with a 100 IRE test pattern. This is in the same ballpark as a direct view TV. This is not to say there is no drop off.
Judging the picture quality in the showroom is of little use unless you calibrate both TVs. The color decoder accuracy of my GWII after calibration is very close to a $15,000 Sim2 HT300+ front projector. Who knows which of the two RPTVs is better if you just use it out of the box with factory defaults.
Here is what I would consider.
Negatives of these TV's are:
Black levels and contrast ratio worse than many other technologies. (BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT THIS)
$200 light bulb will need to be replaced at about 8000 hrs.
Fan noise can be heard in quite scenes.
High screen resolution will show problems in standard definition broadcasts.
Best picture requires service menu adjustment.
LCD panels tend to have subtle patches of color or color shifts across screen. (Most annoying on B&W movies)
Factory service menu settings look washed out due to low gamma.
Dust can get on LCD requiring cleaning.
Some LCD artifacts are visible on high contrast scenes.
Panels cannot be adjusted by owner if they are out of alignment.
You cannot rescale 720p or 1080i images to eliminate black bars present on some HD material.
All images going into this set are scaled internally making the use of an external scaler of little use.
These sets are not as easy as some to hook a PC to as some others.
Positives of these TV's are:
Resolution of details at this price point.
Presentation is very film like.
Minimal LCD damage possibility with low wattage bulb allows 4:3 viewing without stretching or gray bars. Good for games also.
TV can be restored to near original picture by replacing bulb.
The picture can be improved with service menu adjustments.
Fewer artifacts (no temporal dithering, rainbows...) than competing DLP sets if you see them.
Bright screen image is good in high ambient light situations.
Good anti-reflection coating helps with bright rooms as well.
Physical size of TV compared to other RPTVs.
No convergence required.
Sony offers discrete remote codes (on, off, Video 1, Video2 ...).
Set will automatically detect anamorphic wide-screen material and scale the screen appropriately.
Near perfect geometry. (Slight bowing on some sets)
Good off-axis performance
No interference on picture from magnetic fields (speakers)
I just bought the Sony KF-50XBR800. It is an excellent television. Along with the picture quality, the most important thing for me was to fit it in my basement which has only one narrow entrance way. Because of its thin profile it fit easily into the basement I was up and running in minutes.
I am very happy with my purchase.
