Independent 3rd Party Certification

[wkrasl]

I am interested in discussion of independent 3rd party certification of home theaters, particularly in HTIBs. Examples of related certifications include:

Dolby ... http://www.dolby.com/consumer/home_entertainment/index.html
THX ... http://www.thx.com/mod/products/homeTheatre.html

I am not pro-Dolby or pro-THX. I am pro-certification. What I hope to learn in this discussion is pros and cons of specific 3rd party certifications.

Replies like, "Don't waste energy or money on requiring an HTIB to be THX-certified," will be as useless as, "Don't waste energy or money on requiring an HTIB to be Dolby-certified," unless substantiated with technical flaws of THX or Dolby. The opposite is just as true. If you tell me I better make sure my system is Dolby-certified or THX-certified, tell me why in terms of technical specifications.

Dolby and THX are examples. If there are other 3rd party standards important to HTIBs and subscribed to by competing brands, please include them, pro or con in technical terms.

[wkrasl]

Pro-THX: http://www.thx.com/mod/techlib/dvdCriteria.html
Limited to DVDs, this presents useful technical information in favor of THX. Naturally THX, Inc will present technical arguments in favor of themselves.

Con-THX: http://www.hometheatersound.com/features/cinemacynergy/cc_20010501.htm
This is a good example of a reasonable technical argument against THX. I would like to see more like this, with a more current date.

[Crunchyriff]

I'd try a "google search" on this if you want to spend some time dwelling on the issue for a length of time.

My Onkyo certainly has a THX rating- but I really could care less, as I rarely use THX mode on my A/V receiver. Remember, THX also specs/calls for certain speakers as well (and I don't have, nor want these); and I don't totally agree with their philosophy regarding sound and speaker size. For instance- it calls for all your speakers to be set on 'small' (aside from the subwoofer), and my speakers, aside from the center channel, are all towers, with the fronts well-capable of handling substantial bass. They sound better set to "large".

THX Cert. aside- the only thing important in the long run is what pleases your ears.

[Ratman]

http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showpost.php?p=87631&postcount=50

[wkrasl]

I'd try a "google search" on this if you want to spend some time dwelling on the issue for a length of time.

My Onkyo certainly has a THX rating- but I really could care less, as I rarely use THX mode on my A/V receiver. Remember, THX also specs/calls for certain speakers as well (and I don't have, nor want these); and I don't totally agree with their philosophy regarding sound and speaker size. For instance- it calls for all your speakers to be set on 'small' (aside from the subwoofer), and my speakers, aside from the center channel, are all towers, with the fronts well-capable of handling substantial bass. They sound better set to "large".

THX Cert. aside- the only thing important in the long run is what pleases your ears.

Yep ... My Google search for "Arguments against THX" yielded no hits until I removed the quotes. Then it came up with one relevant hit, referenced as "con-THX" in my previous message. I am looking for more arguments ... as well as for pro and con arguments on non-THX standards or certifications like Dolby and VESA.

You did bring up a good technical argument against THX certification in that it is less useful on a component-by-component basis. It doesn't help to have a THX-certified receiver if the speakers don't conform to the THX specs. That's why I am more interested in HTIBs with matched components. Is there a similar argument on selecting or rejecting any of the Dolby flavors?

A lot of replies to a similar discussion in a different thread dodge the issue with the same, "buy what sounds good." I don't disagree, but that's not the purpose of this thread. Here, I am exploring the elimination of subjective impressions from a purchase. Aside from personal tastes being an unreliable standard, depending on mood from one day to the next, it also ignores the rest of the purchaser's family (spouse, in-laws, kids, and grandkids) who will likely have a completely different subjective impression.

This thread seeks to find objective, technical, 3rd-party certification reasons for selecting or rejecting HT or HTIB choices, as well as seeking objective, technical reasons for selecting or rejecting the 3rd-party certification standard/spec itself.

[wkrasl]

http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showpost.php?p=87631&postcount=50

As I said, "... A lot of replies to a similar discussion in a different thread dodge the issue ... " The purpose of this thread is to open a discussion, not to have someone make a decision for me. :guiny:

[Ratman]

Do all of your appliances and electrical devices in your home have a UL certification?

How many are ISO 9000/9001 compliant.

EnergyStar?

No one's 'dodging' issues. There's nothing to really discuss.

If you want THX and believe that it is of benefit, then focus your purchasing descision(s) on those requirements/specifications.

But to be 100% THX compliant, then EVERY component must have that logo. (Receiver, speakers, DVD player, speakers, cables and wires.)

Let alone whether you buy into, THX, THX-Select, THX-Ultra, etc.

IMO... if someone was ready to dump $10,000+ into an A/V system, I'd agree that THX may be something to question/consider. But for an HTIB? Nah...

I'm not making a descision for you or anyone. Just presenting reality and practicality.

[Crunchyriff]

I'm not so sure you'll find a HTIB (Home Theatre In a BOX, right?) set that is THX certified. I may be amiss here.

I'm neither for nor against THX as a "standard". But I DO believe that this too, IS one subjective opinion as "optimum sound" being mass-marketed, by George Lucas. For better or worse. As a professional musician, I know "good sound", and I don't need that dictated to me.

You could say that, in a way it boils down to the Ford-vs-Chevy debate. Of course, having formerly been in the Automotive Service Industry for two decades (and I've worked on it all), I have developed my own opinions on this: which cars I think are rock-solid and which are crap or "irrelevant".... but the buying public may have a different minset.

I would disagree with the thought: "It doesn't help to have a THX-certified receiver if the speakers don't conform to the THX specs." Of course it helps, IMHO. For instance, I would think that the THX rating itself would more or less guarantee a certain bandwidth and S/N requirement being met in order to get this rating. Which means you are getting a pretty decent amplification section.

Case in point: I haven't seen or heard of one single "THX rated" A/V reciever that was lacking in this dept, while SOME others at a similar price point without the THX rating sometimes had weaker power sections... that being said, there are also robust A/V receivers and multi-channel amps that are powerhouses WITHOUT the THX moniker.

It's (THX rating) not useless at all for me, whether I select THX in my DSP menu or not; in spite of the fact that my speakers are non-THX compliant. It's there if I want it- and I do occasionally use it- when viewing Monsters Inc, for instance. Certain THX/DVD's we have I will run the THX setting on. The response is a bit tighter and drier. But it's not preferable on all tracks, IMHO. 90% of the time I will either select DD 5.1, or DTS and be done with it.

As far as 3rd-party standards for accepting or rejecting THX- I'm not sure what you are trying to strain out here...THX has been a fairly accepted "standard" by not only the film industry, but certain A/V gear manufacturers too, along with DTS as well. As such, certainly there seems to be some merit in this- and I can't believe it's all "marketing"; but to get the FULL THX experience, you need to have EVERYTHING involved in the audio process to get what they would, in a lab-smock, controlled environment, deem as "THX reference standard"; and I believe this would include the room layout and appointments themselves.

So even if you have ALL THX certified components and speakers, (but your room doesn't measure up), by your own terms, this too, would make THX irrelevant.

As far as subjective opinions being moot in this- I would also disagree. Not everything that works "on paper" works the same way, or has the same desired outcome, in the real world.

Some "engineers", for example (not recording engineers), have a real problem understanding this.

To sum it up, even "THX" is ultimately a subjective opinion, that being by LucasArts.

After all, we had great audio for years before THX was marketed to the buying public.

[wkrasl]

I'm not so sure you'll find a HTIB (Home Theatre In a BOX, right?) set that is THX certified. I may be amiss here.
...


http://cnet.search.com/search?chkpt=astg.cnet.fd.search.cnet&q=THX+certified&tag=srch



...
Case in point: I haven't seen or heard of one single "THX rated" A/V reciever that was lacking in this dept, while SOME others at a similar price point without the THX rating sometimes had weaker power sections... that being said, there are also robust A/V receivers and multi-channel amps that are powerhouses WITHOUT the THX moniker.
...


That's my point on being pro-certification. Without some kind of minimum specifications on important measurable features, purchases at similar price points can be hit or miss. What I am looking for in this thread is an objective methodology for eliminating the misses.

For example see http://www.dolby.com/consumer/home_entertainment/roomlayout.html#shopping. Dolby certainly is making a recommendation for speakers. But, I can't figure out if a Dolby license provides any measureable specs on speaker (and receiver) quality, or if it is just permission to decode the patented encoding.

Ratman pointed out we have UL certification, but that appears only to be safety related. I think ISO 9000/9001 are process quality standards, but not consumer quality standards. EnergyStar is his best consumer-oriented quality example, to the extent that we might want to save electricity, but that might work against providing enough power to the speakers.

Are there any other specs/standards/certifications that competing manufacturers subscribe to that are relevant to an objective HT or HTIB purchase decision?

[wkrasl]

... along with DTS as well...



Thank you. I kept overlooking DTS, thinking it was a different flavor of Dolby.

So I ask the same question I did for Dolby. Do manufacturers have to meet some technical spec to be able to claim they are DTS-compliant (or whatever the terminology is) ... or are they just saying they are licensed to decode the DTS proprietary encoding?

[Ratman]

Dolby Digital
1.0, 2.0, 2.1, 3.0, 3.1, 4.0, 5.0, 5.1, EX

DTS
same as above, except 5.1 ES and ES Discrete.

Then...
DVD-Audio, SACD, HDCD, DPL, DPL II, DPL IIX, Circle Surround, NEO-6, BBE, SRS...... and on and on.

These are all "formats".

THX is a "label" that manufacturers pay to "George Lucas" to place on equipment (amps, pre-amps, receivers, speakers, cables, etc.) to generate revenue. Any THX specifications ONLY relate to Dolby Digital.

THX only applies to Dolby Digital.

Repeat... it's only a label... it's only a label... it's only a label.

[wkrasl]

Dolby Digital
...
Repeat... it's only a label... it's only a label... it's only a label.

I got it. It has value only for George Lucas because it puts money in his pockets, and has value only for manufacturers because it dupes consumers into buying their products, and has no value for consumers. :whistle:

It's only a movie ... it's only a movie ... it's only a movie. :rofl2:

[Ratman]

Exactly.

[Crunchyriff]

It's only a BBS!!!! :rofl2:

[Crunchyriff]

wkrasl-

checking up on the thread, I looked at your link, and I stand corrected: but what I had in mind about "HTIB", was something that included a receiver as well, not just the speakers... maybe I'm amiss here, but as a buyer, HTIB means "it's all in there"...from my warped perspective, that is. :)

[wkrasl]

wkrasl-

checking up on the thread, I looked at your link, and I stand corrected: but what I had in mind about "HTIB", was something that included a receiver as well, not just the speakers... maybe I'm amiss here, but as a buyer, HTIB means "it's all in there"...from my warped perspective, that is. :)

Actually, you are correct and I stand corrected. My link does not appear to have any HTIB's ... unless you buy the receiver and the speakers and ask for a combined shipment. :rofl2:

[Crunchyriff]

We'll split the difference on that, eh?