View Full Version : Auditioned a $12,000 DLP today
I got a chance to spend about an hour with a $12,000 DLP HDTV
projector today. Dont remember the make or model but it was filling
a 90" front screen. First time I have ever seen front projection DLP HDTV.
While the resolution was outstanding as well as the uniformity across
the screen, the grayscale and color was awful compared to my $600
sony CRT HDTV. The color was so bad that I couldnt believe it. It looked
very "fake" and unnatural compared to my Sony. I would say it looked a cross between
SDTV and HDTV. It had the incredible sharpness of HDTV but the very
"old" looking color of SDTV. I could never watch this if you gave it to me
for free and it was 10 times sharper than what I had. Sharpness certainly isnt everything thats for sure. Ill take a slightly less sharp image with the right colors and grayscale anyday over something like this. It was a very weird experience. It did make me think of something worth remembering. You can back up from a set that doesnt look sharp enuff until it does. But if the color and grayscale are no good, it looks bad at every distance and the only way it will look acceptable is if you get so far away you cant see it anymore!
JCO
Ratman
01-07-2005, 08:29 AM
... or you get the greyscale calibrated properly.
Most displays in stores are not properly calibrated, nor are they matched w/ the correct screen. Usually because they are constantly changing out they projector,and don't want to remove the screen and install a new one.
I do not beleive there are any "greyscale" calibration adjustments (internal or external) other than the usual brightness and picture(contrast) controls and the dealer let me play with those and I was unable to get it to look even close to being right. The image had no subtle color in the flesh tones like a CRT, flesh tones were oversimplified and looked like "color masks". This was garbage compared to a good CRT without a doubt. Are you trying to say you think a DLP projection system can match or exceed the best direct CRTs in terms of greyscale linearity, contrast range and color accuracy? I dont think that is true. And I forgot to mention ambient light could not have been a factor either, it was shown in a totally light tight dark sealed home theater room.
I am not trying to say direct CRTS are better than DLP projectors in all respects. The DLP had outstanding resolution and uniformity but the color/
greyscale inferiority was so obvious I know I could never want that model
at least. I dont think the ideal display exists. I think it would need to have the color and vibrance of the direct CRTS and the size and resolutions of
projectors. As it is now we have to pick our flavor of poison.
JCO
mjones73
01-07-2005, 10:14 AM
It's called the service menu, projectors have them just like TV's and projectors can be ISF calibrated just like a TV... I'm not saying it can beat a CRT or anything like that, just you need to have it calibrated and matched to an idea screen to get the best performance out of it.
It's called the service menu, projectors have them just like TV's and projectors can be ISF calibrated just like a TV... I'm not saying it can beat a CRT or anything like that, just you need to have it calibrated and matched to an idea screen to get the best performance out of it.
I know what calibration and service menus are but greyscale (contrast/picture and black level ) adjustments are not service menu level adjustments, they are USER adjustments and this
projector was not possible to adjust to look even close to a new a high end direct view CRT. There is an old saying, you cant polish a turd.
JCO
Hmmm, red/green/blue bias and offsets? Gamma? My FP seems to have all that plus a multitude of other settings in addition to the normal user settings.
My Toshiba (Infocus) came calibrated out of the box. However, I did have it ISF calibrated to make it perfect :)
You won't be doing a proper 'greyscale' calibration without the spectrophotometer anyway.
I wonder what brand it was, $12,000 had to be a very nice unit.
Lee
edit: There is plenty of discussion about 'which' is best in other threads. There is no best, only preference. :)
Curious, Is yours DLP technology or something else?
Regarding the "best", there is no OVERALL best, true but
there certainly is better aspects or parameters with different
display technologies. The color CRTS in my opinion are worse for everything
except contrast range and color accuracy based on what I have seen so
far. The direct and projection LCD and the projection DLPs I have seen are much
sharper than color CRTs for example. To me the ideal display would have the color
and contrast range of a CRT but the size and resolution of the LCD and DLP
projectors. Maybe someday...
JCO
Curious, Is yours DLP technology or something else?
Mustang HD2 DLP front projector. Personally I preferred the image and PQ over a LCD front projector. Others don't.
Nothing will beat a CRT for contrast ratio, black is black. A correctly setup CRT is difficult to beat in most areas. CRT front projectors are 'heavy' and do require lots of tweaking, convergence for example. CRT projectors have a very large and loyal following :)
Just look at what's available in the FP market and you'll see where that is going.
Splitting hairs between LCD and DLP and note that the differences are becoming less and less with each new generation with DLP maintaining a slight lead. IMHO.
You want screen size in excess of 90" you are pretty much looking at a front projector. I find 119" suited my needs and HT perfectly. A CRT front projector didn't even enter into the decision process.
There is a point where contrast ratio is not a factor and I think the HD3 (DLP) chips are getting very close, same for some LCD's.
I'm two generations back with my HD2 (one year old :)) and I have a bright crystal clear image in HD and DVD. Too see an improvement in CR I'd have to have a new unit side by side for comparison because I don't see it in the a/v store. The lighting in my HT is totally controlled. In a room where the light is not controlled, the new units would most likely kick my butt.
As far as RPTV, DLP or LCD, I'd have to do my homework. My last two RPTVs were CRT based with the last one being HD (Tosh 65HDX82). I was quite satisfied with it but wanted a larger screen. I did all my own calibration except for greyscale (don't have the equipment) and was quite happy with the PQ. The Tosh is still in the family, as is the 15 year old Pioneer.
We could split hairs all day but its still preference and I'm sad to say in too many cases, its what the sales guy is pushing :(
The good news, more choices, the technologies are improving rapidly and prices are dropping. Pick what looks best to you and fits your budget and ENJOY it!
The bad news? I'm not wealthy enough to keep up with the technology.
Sorry for the ramble,
Lee
mikehbkwm
01-08-2005, 02:53 PM
jco sorry but were did you get that you couldnt calibrate grey scale or other things in the service menu of a digital projector....
You cant calibrate what the technology wont permit. That is like saying you can buy a $100 loudspeaker and use an equalizer to make it sound like a $10,000 speaker via "proper" calibration. A crrent DLP projector is not going to be able to match a direct CRT in contrast range and bit depth. I am not saying there arent some service adjustments, presumably for matching the R/G/B but unlike a CRT the DLP should not really much tweeking once it leaves the factory because there is much less going on in the analog domain.
You cant calibrate what the technology wont permit.
I guess the gamma and 6500k calibration I had done were just a figment of my imagination? And I though it looked so much better :)
I guess the gamma and 6500k calibration I had done were just a figment of my imagination? And I though it looked so much better :)
I didnt say calibrations cant improve things but improvement does not equal perfection or matching something that exceeds the performance of your best settings. Just like you can put an equalizer on a cheap speaker and possibly make it sound better, that doesnt mean you can adjust it to match a $10K speaker. Same thing with video adjustments. You never responded as to what type of set you are using, CRT FP, LCD FP, DLP FP,????
mikehbkwm
01-09-2005, 01:25 AM
hes got the model number listed in his signature..... :whistle: google is your friend its a DLP FP
BadCamper
01-09-2005, 09:51 AM
I didnt say calibrations cant improve things but improvement does not equal perfection or matching something that exceeds the performance of your best settings. Just like you can put an equalizer on a cheap speaker and possibly make it sound better, that doesnt mean you can adjust it to match a $10K speaker. Same thing with video adjustments. You never responded as to what type of set you are using, CRT FP, LCD FP, DLP FP,????
Sorry, but I don't buy this argument. If you're running a Formula 1 racing car on 87 octane unleaded, you're gonna murder the performance of that vehicle.
Just the same, if you don't have a $12K DLP set up properly, or used with the proper equipment, you might as well start looking at the station wagons of television technology for better performance.
Sorry, but I don't buy this argument. If you're running a Formula 1 racing car on 87 octane unleaded, you're gonna murder the performance of that vehicle.
Just the same, if you don't have a $12K DLP set up properly, or used with the proper equipment, you might as well start looking at the station wagons of television technology for better performance.
Are you trying to say that anything can be made perfect or made to match the performance of anything else via adjustments? Well that is the argument you must be trying to make if you read my post because I say it cant always be done.
Secondly, everyone here seems to be convinced that the $12K projector I saw was not calibrated. That is an unknown. It may have very well been calibrated ( think about it, would a vendor provide a $12K projector to a dealer showroom and NOT inform them of the calibration requirement or provide the onsite calibration after installation? I seriously doubt it). It could very well be the case I originally stated : It just looks worse/fake in terms of color accuracy/greyscale than my new SONY color CRT (even with calibration). Why is everyone insisting that if it doesnt look as good as a new
sony CRT in that respect that it must be out of calibration? It could very well be that a duck is duck and it just isnt as good and proper calibration isnt the issue.
Ratman
01-09-2005, 01:19 PM
Super... you're right and everyone else is wrong.
Next?
Crunchyriff
01-09-2005, 02:45 PM
my $1300 inFocus 4805 DLP p/j has richer colors, and blacker blacks than my 36" Toshiba CRT- both coupled to my Denon DVD-3800. I know a CRT should be top dawg here, but not this time. I have no idea why. Well, let's say the blacks are equitable (for reasons's sake) but overall the 4805 has bested my CRT considerably.
Seriously.
Now, if it makes you feel better to say that a $12K projector can't cut it, and there's no way to make it look any better, well then, feel better, and say it all you want.
Oh, hey... "HI" Lee!
Matt27
01-09-2005, 03:04 PM
:rofl2: Ratman you crack me up, c'mon JCO give it up man, you may have won the battle but you will never win the war. :zblowup:
:patriot:
Crunchyriff
01-09-2005, 03:14 PM
" INCOMING!!!!" :hah33:
Super... you're right and everyone else is wrong.
Next?
I didnt say I was right or wrong but just because it doesnt look as good in terms of contrast range and color accuracy as a new CRT doesnt mean it
WASNT calibrated. I already stated whether it was calibrated or not is unknown and I provided good reasons to believe it was. If you cant argue
a point with anything other than "super" or "more people say otherwise" you arent bringing much to the table are you?
my $1300 inFocus 4805 DLP p/j has richer colors, and blacker blacks than my 36" Toshiba CRT- both coupled to my Denon DVD-3800. I know a CRT should be top dawg here, but not this time. I have no idea why. Well, let's say the blacks are equitable (for reasons's sake) but overall the 4805 has bested my CRT considerably.
Seriously.
Now, if it makes you feel better to say that a $12K projector can't cut it, and there's no way to make it look any better, well then, feel better, and say it all you want.
Oh, hey... "HI" Lee!
Look I am not into this for kicks. I am giving an honest opinion on what I saw. If your Toshiba cant beat your DLP in terms of contrast range and color accuracy then the toshiba must be a real dog. And I am not just talking
black level I am talking overall dynamic range ( global contrast) and the ability to display very very many extremely subtle different shades of grey in between those two extremes. It is certainly not my unique opinion that CRTS still rule in the contrast range, color accuracy, and grey scale linearity areas and are much worse in other areas compared to the fixed pixel displays. Are you trying to say that DLP technology now meets or exceeds CRT technology in those respects? The color I am getting on my new Sony is mindblowing realistic and when I see phony color like on that DLP it sticks out like a sore thumb. I suggest that your toshiba is a poor performer and you dont know what really good color looks like. Its not a matter of preference of two poisons its a matter of one looking real and the other looking fake. Compared to my Sony CRT the DLP I saw looked FAKE. Instead of subtle flesh tones I saw "color masks" nothing was subtle, everthing looked simplified instead of complex. I am not the least bit pleased about this though. Quite the contrary. CRTs are too small (my CRT is a bedroom set) for a living room
and I want something in the 60" range in my living room but seeing good CRT color is spoiling me and educating me and I am now afraid I will not be satisifed with any of the projectors if they cant match the Sony CRT in terms
of color/greyscale.
Crunchyriff
01-09-2005, 09:19 PM
"....and keeps going and going and going...."
splinter
01-09-2005, 09:48 PM
Why get a projector for only a 60" display?
Matt27
01-09-2005, 09:51 PM
exactly,, more like 100" and up would be more appropriate:)
mikehbkwm
01-09-2005, 10:26 PM
JCO anddddddddddd YOUR OUTTTTTT............ strike 3.......
Why get a projector for only a 60" display?
Whats available in that size in direct view? Plasmas? I dont like the
ones Ive seen so far and couldnt afford them if I did. Im thinking a
RPTV of some sort....
splinter
01-10-2005, 10:32 PM
But you have been talking about a front projection DLP projector in this thread. I assumed you wanted an actual projector and screen.
RPTVs are actual projectors and screens too. But the limitations of RPTV would be the same as FPTV thats why I said I was concerned about projection TVs. I guess I need to take a look at all the current models of RPTV, CRT/LCD/DLP etc. I would love to go with a direct view but I am afraid the prices are still way out of my reach for a 60" direct view of any sort.
