Does 480p Quality Depend on the HDTV???

[slc1t]

Any input from the progressive scan pros would be very much appreciated. I purchased a mits tv in 2000 - ws-65905. 480p with toshiba sd-9200 looked amazing. No aspect ratio control through the tv, though.

Had a problem with the tv and got it replaced with the new 2003 model - ws-65711. With this model the tv can format the 480p signal. 480p looks horrible with the new ws-65711. In fact, 480i is much much better.

My current theory is that in order to allow people to format the picture, they had to do some additional processing of the signal. This additional processing caused artifacting and all of the other problems to crop up. In addition to artifacting, the picture is very grainy and chunky. Almost like watching mpeg... not that bad but you get what I mean.

Bottom line is 480p with the new model looks horrible compared with the 480p I saw on the 2000 model.

Any thoughts??? Could everyone reply with the hdtv model they are currently using with 480p and let me know if the picture is better than 480i?

Has anyone else seen this?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

thanks,
Chet

[57U]

Chet, no need to double post. We'll find it.

As to your question, you've already probably read lots of posts from people on this forum and perhaps other forums. The only consensus that I was able to draw from all this feedback is:

1. It depends.

2. A high priced PS DVD player will provide a superior signal compared to an "i" player.

3. A lot seems to depend on the combination of DVD player and HDTV and it is almost impossible to predict which combination will supply the best picture, but the lilklihood of a better picture increases with the amount spent on the combination, but not guaranteed. (for example an Elite player connected to an Elite HDTV, but not everyone's got that kind of money.)

4. For whatever reason, sometimes a 480i signal will actually look better than a 480P signal, especially on a set that does good upconversion. This may apply more to lower and mid-priced DVD players.

5. There are lots of people who will reply to your last question in the affirmative, however, there are quite a few people who would reply to the opposite question in the affirmative.

Your experience is therefore not atypical.

[slc1t]

57U,

Thanks for your input. My DVD player is very high end - toshiba sd-9200, and the two tvs I am comparing are both mits 65 inch diamonds. One is the 2000 model and one is the 2003 model.

I can't understand why the picture is perfect with the 2000 model but horrible with the 2003 model. There shouldn't be a big difference. I'd like to understand the science behind this a little better. There has got to be a simple explanation like, well in order to include an integrated tuner and add firewire while still keeping the price down, mits needed to go to a lower end line doubler.

An answer like that would be great. Sorry about the double posting. I am getting desperate to get an answer. I need to get back with the reseller and let them know whether or not I want to keep the 65711 or get my old 65905 back and try to work through the blinking problems. I have called mits tech support 5 times with no resolution. Everyone on the phone seems to think the new tv should have a better picture with every input.

So I am hoping someone will stumble across one of my posts and give me an answer like "just go into the sevice mode and activate 480p mode". However, that is not happening and I don't think that it will.

Thanks again for your feed back and if you have read a review on the 65711's 480p capability I would love to read it.

Chet in Boise.

[gsstenzel]

Chet,

One thing that may be causing your problems is the additional prossessing. A 480p signal is an analog output to the TV that goes straight to the guns in your 2000 model. The digital to analog conversion is done on the DVD player.

In the 2003 model, the signal does not go straight to the guns, and has to through another 2 conversions before being put to the screen.

2000 model - DVD->D to A conversion -> TV Screen
2003 model - DVD->D to A conv.->A to D conv.->proseccing->D to A conv.->TV screen

This causes loses in resolution and possibly some artifacting. Also, you may want to look into what the output of the signal is to the TV after it is aspect changed. I have a Hitachi 57XWX20B and sometimes(if I forget to change it) it will output 1080i to the TV.

As far as the line doubler being worse, you would have to set up both TV's to do the line doubling and make the comparison. Does the 2000 model using 480p look the same as the 2003 model using 480i?

Hope this helps a little.

[slc1t]

gsstenzel,

Thanks very much for your reply. That helps me a lot. So now I have another question for you...

Does the 2003 model apply addition processing on hdtv signals as well?

Are there any hdtvs for sale today that take the 480p signal from the dvd player and send it straight to the guns? It seems like most HDTVs that I have looked at have 480p formatting capabilities so they all do some additional processing.

Does your hitachi do additional processing on the 480p signal?

To answer your question about the line doubler. The 480p signal on the 2000 model was, in my mind, almost perfect. The 480i signal on the 2003 model is better than the 2003 480p signal but not anywhere close to the 2000 480p signal.

Thanks again for answering my questions. I really appreciate it. Any input as to a hdtv out there right now that sends 480p signal straight to the guns would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Chet

[gsstenzel]

Chet,

I do not know that much about the Mitsu Diamond Series but here is a go of it.

As far as HD signals go, I would assume that since your TV has a HD tuner in it, the signals would be output to the screen after one D/A conversion. However, if you are using a DSS system for some HD as well, these signal would have to be processed in the same manner as the 480p.

My TV upscales to 540p (something Hitachi does to match the scan rates), so I see artifacting from that conversion as well as resolution loss from my 480p input signal. However, there is not a problem with 1080i signals. Or at least nothing I can tell.

For TVs with no aspect processing, I has been a few months since I have looked for much HDTV stuff, but the Pioneer TV's (not just the Elite Series) used to have the component video go straight to the guns. I can't really remember many offhand.

It seems to me that the TV industry started to change their TVS to accomidate the non-aspect ratio programming out there, but at the same time, low-cost DVD players/DSS receivers started to implement the same ideas. Kind of a bummer that they couldn't work together. I would keep trying to work with Mitsu Tech Service to see if there is a way to override this.

A few years from now, this will all be history when HDVD comes out.

Gregg

[slc1t]

Gregg,

Thanks again for you response. So would you say it is safe to assume that any tv that allows 480p formatting needs additional processing in order to accomplish that formatting?

The new pioneer elites allow 5 formats when playing 480p. I havn't looked at its performance with 480p but I would bet that it has artifacting.

I took your advice and contacted mitsubishi tech support. I asked them about the additional a to d processing. The person on the phone had to ask the product engineer. His answer was that there is no a to d or d to a that the tv does. He said that because the component video inputs were hi-def, they were purely digital. I told them that I believed that component is analoge and that any digital signal would have to be converted before going into the component inputs. The response was, "No, the tv gets the signal straight from the dvd player".

Does this sound right? I think they really didn't know what they were talking about. On top of all of this, I asked another question and the person said, "just a minute". I waited about 30 seconds when I heard a click... They hung up on me. I guess they really didn't want to think about those types of questions.

So right now I think I will ask for my old tv back. The thing that is really better with the new tv is that it has firewire and a vga input. However, I really don't see it as that big of a deal. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Chet

[57U]

You're right, they don't know what they're talking about. Component video cables carry analogue signals.

If they did carry digital, then there would be no need for DVI or firewire....

[gsstenzel]

Chet,

You have to watch what the Pioneer Specs say and other companies for that matter. To say that it allows 5 aspect controls for 480p could mean that with an upconverted signal from 480i it allows aspect control. That is how the previous models (ie 500, 510 series worked). To make sure, go see one at showroom and ask them to input a 480p signal from a DVD player into the component inputs (the S-Video inputs do processing), and see if they can change the aspect. I know you can't on a Elite 510 or 710.

The Mitsu people did not have any idea what there were talking about. Component video has nothing to do with HD(1080i) signals. It is strictly a way to send video information at any scan rate. It is a analog signal!!!

If you are still looking for a new TV, I would go and check out the the Elite's (520, 720) at a showroom. I will try to find out, but I think they lock into a 16:9 aspect on component video inputs. Hope this helps a little more.

Gregg

[slc1t]

Gregg,

It is amazing what you will hear on the phone with some of these "tech support" people. Even most sales people in my area don't know a thing they are talking about. I'm the type that will walk into a store having researched a product the previous night. It is always entertaining to hear what the sales people claim the product will and won't do...

I took your advice again and I went to the only store that sells pioneer hdtvs in the area. They had the progressive scan dvd hooked up to the tv via s-video. I asked them if they could hook up component cables but they said it would be too hard to do that... too many tvs to shift in order to access the back of the pioneer. I had my 1.5 year old with me so I decided not to push them. He was eyeing the pt cruiser the store had on display.

They did have star wars episode 1 playing on the dvd with s-video. The picture looked choppy -- similar to my 480p with the 65711. However, the pioneer s-video did look a bit better than my 408p. Too bad I couldn't see the 408p picture.

Thanks for your help,
Chet

[slc1t]

To close out my issue. I just received my mitsubishi ws-65905 back. I can not even begin to describe the difference between the 65711 and 65905 with progressive scan. The 65905 blows the 65711 out of the water! I have had the 65711 in my house for 2 months now and have tried all kinds of things to improve 480p. NOTHING WORKED. Some things helped -- a little. 480p on the 65905 looks better than movies in the theater -- you cannot see any artifacting -- no scan lines. Everything is crystal clear. The 65711 looks like a low quality mpeg. I don't care what anyone else says -- i tried 3 different progressive scan dvd players on the 65711 -- Denon, Pioneer, and my toshiba sd-9200 nothing helped. that set is a piece of junk and does not accept a true 480p signal. I also looked at 3 different 65711 units -- all having the same problems.

My point is...your monitor does matter. And just because a company has produced high quality stuff in the past doesn't mean they will continue to do it. Mitsubishi has seriously degraded their picture quality over the last 3 years. I looked at D-VHS on the 65711 and that didn't even look as good as 480p on the 65905.

A lot of people have been complaining on different boards about new mitsubishi hdtvs and the replys are always 1) turn down contrast, 2) avia dvd disc, blah blah blah. I'll give a quick honest answer. mitsubishi sets suck...at least for right now. But boy did they make a beaty in 2000 with the 65905! I love it.

Take care and always do your homework. No one should be giving advice unless they have looked at the set themselves. I wish everyone happy viewing and a great 2003.

Chet in Boise.