Not impressed anymore

[stuckinthemud]

But I'm not giving up yet eityher.

I got the Phillips HD Plasma on Monday. Got it connected to the suround sound and dvd player as well as the old analog STB for Charter Cable. The DVD trip was awsome. Incredibles. Lots of definition.

The cable looked like crap. So I called Charter Tuesday and ordered the HD STB and the HD movie channles. This also included the local channels HD broadcast.

Lastnight I watched LOST on the HD broadcast and was sort of impressed, but really only noted the clearity had returned to what I was used to with the old analog set. Not better...but comparable to what I used to have.

In the mornning I watched the local news and noticed that the interlacing was completely visible from 15 feet away (42 inch plasma). All they really did was stretch the analog broadcast and send it over the HD spectrum. The national network news was not even stretched...they just put grey sidebars on each side. The PQ was obviously better when it was not stretched...no visible interlacing anyways.

I flipped though some of the HD movie channles. Nothing special there either.

I have not claibrated the rig yet. I plan to do that Saturday afternoon. But I have made some off the cuff adjustments to turn down contrast, eliminate movement filters and tone down the brightness. The Brightness was already pretty low out of the box...so that was not a major improvement. But with these initial settings, DVD is clear. So I think the set is pretty close. It's the signal coming through Charter that is offending me...I think.

The STB is connected directly to the TV by Componant. The DVD is connected by Componant to the AV receiver and then the AV receiever is connected to the TV by Componant. That should render the STB as the best source. And it is not.

I'm pretty sure that I did not extend my contract period by ordering the HD gear. The lady on the phone never mentioned it and I never signed anything to agree to an extension. If I verify this to be correct, I plan to switch over to a dish of some sort. I know that the signal over the air from the locals does come in clearer than the cable feed...but will it still be better with a dish from Dish or Direct? Is there another option for source video that I am not considering?

Any advice before I go off half cocked?

Nate

[TheAntMan]

True HD should "look" very well to you. It should not be comparable to what you had before HD. Your STB is connected to your TV via component cables...First, is your STB HD output set at 1080i? That has happened in the past where HD output was set to 480i/p and not 1080. Verify that for us.

[kevinw]

How much HD have you really watched? So far it seems like LOST was the only program. Check out CBS college baskeball this weekend... or do you have ESPNHD? Sportscenter is phenomenal. How about Tonight show?..Do you have INhd, Hdnet, Discover HD or other true 24/7 HD channels?
Watch ER tonight.. Outstanding picture...

[mikehbkwm]

sorry but there should be no difference in what you see OTA compared to what your getting from the cable co... they receive the programming just like anybody else so again there should be NO difference whatsoever in getting it from the cable co or OTA..... another thing you state you think youll get better HD service through satellite then cable you do realize once again dish, direct, and cable are all getting the same HD feed that your going to see whether its hbohd,showtimehd, discovery hd, espn hd...... etc..... the only reason to get satellite over cable is because of price.... some cable co. are higher then others but again you getting the same thing from whatever co... you go with...

[TheAntMan]

As far as your poor standard channels...It's not uncommon for SD PQ to look awful when you first see on an HD set. It's the biggest "complain" that most of us have, but by tweaking the SD settings, it's what we live with to enjoy HD. You have Comcast, and you may have posted somewhere else, but what STB do they use? Motorolla?

I also watched Lost last night (rerun BTW) and the jungle was clear, crisp, and very green. As far as alternatives, you can check out the thread HDTV Providers and look under Voom. We have had discussions on that thread the last few days... It's an option for you

[HookemHorns]

If you have Discovery HD, watch 'Austin Stevens: Snakemaster' tonight tons of landscapes and usually in jungles and water.

[chad1279]

Is your new plasma an EDTV or HDTV? I know there quite a few people that get duped into buying an EDTV plasma because its cheaper and think that it will display 1080i. These EDTV plasmas will only display 480p.

[stuckinthemud]

True HD should "look" very well to you. It should not be comparable to what you had before HD. Your STB is connected to your TV via component cables...First, is your STB HD output set at 1080i? That has happened in the past where HD output was set to 480i/p and not 1080. Verify that for us.

Antman,

This was my first guess. I went into the setup on the STB and could not find any settings for the resolution. It's a Motorola STB. I do not have a model number but I will tomorrow!

Thanks,

Nate

[Ratman]

Philips 42PF9956
Display Resolution 1024 x 1024

[stuckinthemud]

Is your new plasma an EDTV or HDTV? I know there quite a few people that get duped into buying an EDTV plasma because its cheaper and think that it will display 1080i. These EDTV plasmas will only display 480p.

HDTV.

Phillips 42PF9956/37

Like I said, I do not think it is the TV. It's got to be the signal. It looks better with the OTA signal than with the Cable signal.

Why the mods decided to move this thread to the Phillips forum is beyond me cuz it is not about the TV. It's about the HDTV.



Nate

[TheAntMan]

Yea Chad, his TV is HD ready. My first look would be at your HD output. It has happened before that installers do not set it to 1080i after they hook it up, and HD output was set to 480i/p. This may not be the case with you stuck, but it's something that has happened before.

I talked about SD channels in an earlier post above, but wanted to add, for your SD channels your STB should have a "passthrough" feature so SD channels can pass to your TV in their normal signal without being upconverted...enable that feature if you can. To check your HD output I'll give you my example (moto..TWC). Leave your TV on, but turn your STB box off. While the box is off, press the menu button on your remote or on the STB itself and the box settings will display and you can see/change your HD settings. Try that out.

[Ratman]

I moved it again....

I sounds like an STB setup issue.

[stuckinthemud]

I moved it again....

I sounds like an STB setup issue.

I think I agree. I hope I'm right.

When I saw it in the Phillips forum my first thought was ... Great...it's burried now where no one will see the post. LOL Not many Phillips owners (out of the closet owners) on this firum. Or maybe there are a lot but there are no concerns to discuss. But that forum has very little activity, it seems. Thanks for moving it again!

Nate

[oman321]

And the settings should be
1080I
16:9
480I or 480P

[Tryton]

Check out CBS college baskeball this weekend...

O god, dont tell him to watch cbs coverage, it sucks and is blurry. As mentioned in the ncaa post. Watch Discovery hd inhd 1 or 2 or HDnet. Very good pq on those channels

[Splicer]

I sounds like an STB setup issue.


Gotta agree. It sounds as if the STB is set to output 480i/p (SD) instead of 720p or 1080i (HD).

Using your STB remote, turn the STB OFF then press MENU. You may need to press SETUP instead, but try MENU 1st. You should see a white background screen with TV TYPE being 1st on the list. Set this to 16:9. The next item should be YPbPr OUTPUT. Insure that this option is set to eiter 720p or 1080i. The 3rd thing on the list should be 4:3 OVERRIDE. Set this to either 480i or 480p. In BOTH the YPbPr OUTPUT and 4:3 OVERRIDE, use whichever setting you feel gives the best performance.

Also, not all HD is created equally. Showtime HD will not look as good (IMO) as a live HD feed such as The Tonight Show with Jay Leno or NASCAR on FOX or even PBS HD (which is, again just my opinion, the best HD quality). Hope this helps. :cheers:

[kevinw]

O god, dont tell him to watch cbs coverage, it sucks and is blurry. As mentioned in the ncaa post. Watch Discovery hd inhd 1 or 2 or HDnet. Very good pq on those channels
Mine is fantastic. OTA at its finest... As clear as last year or any other ports broadcast in HD.. The analog feeds are pretty bad..but ther not HD.
Last nights games wre great PQ..

[stuckinthemud]

OK...I got into setup on the STB. The passthrough was set to off so I changed it to 480p. The SD channels look better now, but I still would not call them good.

I watched the Louisville game lastnight. What a game! PQ was great! I started to watch Haunted on the HDNet, but that got real boring as the story just was not moving. But the PQ was great! Obviusly the local stations have the capabiulity to send out a true HD broadcast as this game proved to me.

I watched a little of the local HD broadcasts and was not nearly as impressed. Some of the commercials looked good but most of the programs were terrible. I am anxiously awaiting next Thursday to watch LOST again.

The news was even worse this morning.

What I have boiled it down to is this....
The local TV stations think they are broadcasting HD. In reallity they are pushing garbage across their bandwidth. Maybe it will improve next year when they abandon the analog signals (if the deadline is not extended again...LOL). But for now, NBC is stretching the video across the screen uniformly. I like this better than stretching at the ends (that makes me feel dizzy)...but all the people look fat. ABC is putting out a decent PQ that sometimes appears to be 16:9 other times it does not. I think they are the most advanced in this particular market. Anything coming from ABC is worse than what is coming from the local station(like news). CBS is broadcasting gray bars on the sides. This is nice since my set doesn't seem to have an option for gray bars instead of black bars. I prefer a 4:3 signal to be viewed as a 4:3 display. But I am affraid to do that since I can't get gray bars. Some of the stuff coming from CBS is actually coming out 16:9 so that is nice. But the local stuff is all coming across as 4:3. With the gray bars, I prefer that.

None of them have a good clean crisp HD product to offer. The OTA is defianetly better quality than the cable. Others have said this is nonsense. I live 18 miles out of town where the local broadcasters are. I am 6 miles from the switching station for the cable company. The Cable media is not as efficient as the airwaves...period. It's supposed to be all digital so it should not matter how far I am from the switching station. But something is being lost in the pipe. Maybe it's on the cable company's reception end. All I know is the signal for local broadcasters is coming through the cable worse than OTA. Not much, but some nontheless.

I am very happy with the PQ on most of the digital cable channles. I am even more happy with PQ from HD channels. I can put up with the weak PQ from the SD channels of the cable now that the passthrough is set properly in the STB.

This issue is considered closed. I am going fishing tomrrow morning and forgeting about HDTV for a day! Although...my 11 yr old nephew that is going with me has a portable DVD player...maybe we can tweak his settings tomorrow if the fish don't bite.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I learned a lot from this thread.

Nate

[Ratman]

Are 100% sure your STB is set properly?

Re-read Splicer's thread above.

A true HD broadcast should look appreciably better whether it's cable, satellite or OTA.

Also... the conversion to digital broadcast has been extended to 2009. AND... just because it's digital, does not necessarily mean the program is HD.

[kevinw]

You do realize not all programming is HD? So if you were watching network TV this am it was NOT HD

[stuckinthemud]

Are 100% sure your STB is set properly?

Re-read Splicer's thread above.

A true HD broadcast should look appreciably better whether it's cable, satellite or OTA.

Also... the conversion to digital broadcast has been extended to 2009. AND... just because it's digital, does necessarily mean the program is HD.

Am I 100 percent sure? No. I did set the three settings as instructed above and I know for a fact they are what posters here told me to do. LOL

As I said in my post above, everything in HDNet looked awsome. All the premium movie chanells that are deignated as HD look awsome. All HD material looks better than anything else. Next best looking is good quality Digital transmissions. On Charter that is channel 100 and higher. Although...I have found a few of the Digital channels to be less clear than a FEW of the SD channels. There are some good SD shows that are better than some poor digital shows. I have not found any SD shows better than any true HD shows.

What I tried to say above is that the local stations are definately pumping something other than HD on their HD signals...sometimes. And when they do pump HD through that signal, it looks WAY better than non HD shows.

I'm not a very articulate person. I hope I got this message across right. I think we are bassically in agreement here.

Nate

[stuckinthemud]

You do realize not all programming is HD? So if you were watching network TV this am it was NOT HD

Kevin,

This is eactally what I was trying to say. Thank you.

Nate

[stuckinthemud]

Also, not all HD is created equally. Showtime HD will not look as good (IMO) as a live HD feed such as The Tonight Show with Jay Leno or NASCAR on FOX or even PBS HD (which is, again just my opinion, the best HD quality). Hope this helps. :cheers:

I have to agree here. PBS definately got a heads up on the HD bandwagon. Their stuff looks awsome all the time (I've only spent about 3 hours watching it in 15 minute intervals over a two day period so maybe there is some stuff that looks awful...but I have not found it yet).

Nate

[Ratman]

Okay... so we're all on the same page. It sounds as if you're progressing!

Have you read this FAQ?
http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showthread.php?t=14280

[strangersonmyflight]

Here's my list of points:

1. If you are seeing "stretched" or fat images, that is usually the TV or stb setting, rather than whether the networks are sending their SD over HD. If the settings are correct, then it is "normal" to see the sidebars while viewing SD in an HD sort of setting. It doesn't fill the screen quite right, but that is just the price you pay in a mixed SD/HD world. It's those "alternative" screen settings intended to fill the screen, where you get the funny looking images (it's just taking a guess on how to paste an image to fill your screen, and if there is just no easy match, you get the weird scaling). I would agree with your discovery, however, that the local networks/production houses are not exactly fully on the HD bandwagon, even if they have HD broadcasts. So, yes, you will find 4:3 shows and 16:9 shows all together on one "HD" channel (just whatever is available to send "something" on their HD wire). Perhaps the big catch-22 of this government mandate to move over to HD is that it only requires that they have an HD channel fully operational for broadcast, not that every program on it has to be in HD/widescreen. So there may be a defined point where HD channels will carry on the banner as a broadcast standard, but as for how soon all of our programs are actually HD and widescreen- that may not be so distinct.

Here's my funny example of the cohabitation of SD/HD programming. If you ever watch the show Cops on Saturday nights, you'll notice the opening wrapper of the show (where they play the song) is in widescreen, but the actual show that follows is in 4:3. Weird, eh? Also, has Leno or Letterman gone widescreen, yet? I dunno, but if they are, it is funny (no pun intended) that SNL still is 4:3. When it comes to shows that are shot to film (rather than tape), that seems to be the most consistent so far, as for expecting widescreen presentation.

2. My experiences so far is that OTA yields the best digital presentations. They are least under the gun (at this point in time) to squeeze into allotted bandwidth. DirecTV/Dish will be the worst choice, imo. You may be able to get a "decent" image through them, but "the best that HD has to offer"? That's fairly improbable (and that is supported by the logistics of their available bandwidth). I've seen some DirecTV Discovery HD, and the results were less than stunning, imo (I was left with the idea, "this is supposed to sell HD to the masses?"). The minute you get an aerial flyover of some savannah or a busy shot of teaming underwater life, and the video quality drops to "ludicrous". I would think cable has better prospects for video quality over the satellite solutions (due to bandwidth), but I've read some discouraging things on user reviews on the Google forums. So the bandwidth may be there, but the politics layer may be washing that advantage out by simply pushing too many channels in favor of broadcast revenue. So you will have to check this out with your own eyes, if you are considering cable.

3. Did I hear that right that your stb is running a 480p output setting? You don't get any other options? Do component outputs pass all the HD formats or just 480p? I'm not really up on all these "interfaces"...

[Ratman]

The "override" setting is set to 480p. See the posts above in regard to the suggestions and assuming stuckinthemud has properly performed the setup.

Component cables pass all signals (480i/p, 720p and 1080i).

[kevinw]

So everything IS working fine. When you watch HD it looks great, When you watch digital, it is ok and when you watch SD analog it is awful....about par for the course

[TheAntMan]

It looks like everything is fine. PBS has some of the best looking HD material out there, Discovery HD has great PQ (learned alot about snakes in the last month or so).

What gets a lot of new to HD people confused (not saying you, stuck, but a lot of new ones) when they FIRST get HD, is right away they want to see the whole screen filled 16X9 right off the bat and if they connect up and watch midday on CBS, NBC, ABC, etc on a HD channel and see "the bars", most wonder why the screen is not filled. In my case with TWC, channel 11 is cbs and channel 311 is the "HD" CBS channel. Well, most programs on the 311 "HD" channels have the bars on the sides. You can tell the program is digital and is by far better than SD channel 11, but because the bars are there..... the question comes up, why are there bars?? It's up to forums like this and people like "us" to say that the bar's are okay and that for most of the day (a.m.) HD channels (311) are not showing HD Programs...but when the evening comes and programs are "broadcast" in HD (Everybody Raymond, According Jim, Lost, 24, West Wing American Idol, Law and Order, ETC) then their TV's shine. If new to HD folks get set up and turn on their sets to CBS, NBC, ABC, during the a.m. or afternoon and see the bars, the first comment from most is "why isn't my screen filled up". I think slowly though, this forum and others are getting most aware of what "HD" is. HD is NOT the channel, but the PROGRAM that's on the channel.

[strangersonmyflight]

Oh and, I guess point #4 I wanted to make- if you are looking for some calibration material to get your HD on the "right track", you may already own some in your DVD collection. Try looking at your "special edition" DVD's, THX-approved, etc.. Often there will be a setup options menu that contains some test bars/patterns to assist you in setting your contrast, brightness, colors, etc. You may even get lucky and be treated to a scale for horizontal line resolution. You won't exactly be able to pull a hard number out of it, but you will be able to see how far to the extreme right of the scale your TV can still resolve discrete lines. :D

[Ratman]

That would be helpful for settings on the input that the DVD player is connected, but will probably have no bearing on the input where the STB connected.

Normally, each input's settings (on a digital TV) are independant.

Although one could move the DVD player to the input used for the STB to calibrate, but the video outputs of the DVD player and STB would probably be quite different. YMMV

[stuckinthemud]

Okay... so we're all on the same page. It sounds as if you're progressing!

Have you read this FAQ?
http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showthread.php?t=14280

Yup.

That particular FAQ is the one that put me to rest on this issue. I'll try a few more things to make things better, but I fell I am almost where I want to be now so I am happy and hope to catch a big Lahontan Cut Throat tomorrow to mount on the wall next to my TV. :cheers:

Nate

[stuckinthemud]

That would be helpful for settings on the input that the DVD player is connected, but will probably have no bearing on the input where the STB connected.

Normally, each input's settings (on a digital TV) are independant.

Although one could move the DVD player to the input used for the STB to calibrate, but the video outputs of the DVD player and STB would probably be quite different. YMMV

HAHA...it took a while but I figured this out too. I made a bunch of initial settings on the set when I was watching The Incredibles DVD. Later on I was watching TV and noticed everything was rather BLACK. I went into settings and everything was right back where I started. So I set them back the way I wanted them. Next day I chenged the hookups to use componant. Went to watch some programs and the settings were all off. Went into setup and they were rtight back to where I started again. LOL I was pulling my hair out.

But I eventually realized I was changing settings for each of the various hookups. Wait till I hook up the X Box to the side connectors! Maybe X Box likes the contrast up way too high...maybe.

Nate

[strangersonmyflight]

Lacking any other test equipment, the screen patterns you get on a DVD are not a bad place to start. Typically they are standard test patterns (if not, then different in that they are focused toward getting optimal contrast performance from high performance material), hence, it doesn't matter that much if the pattern is coming from a DVD, OTA, or whatever. It would be the same pattern to target your performance settings.

You were somewhat already on the right track by using the DVD player on one input, making your settings, then moving to another input, and repeat your settings, etc... Once you have a "reference" set on each different input, you can make further adjustments from there to suit your tastes and for the particular device that will reside on a given input. Sometimes it is also interesting to note how your personal settings may differ from the "by the book" reference settings (meaning the ones you calibrated via the DVD test patterns, not the default settings that came from the factory).

I went back to find out exactly what these patterns I had done my set with, and it is referred to as a "THX optimizer" screen which, as mentioned earlier, you will likely find on various "special edition" movie DVD's.

[Matt27]

Yeah it's a good start to use the THX optimizer found on THX certified dvd's, untill you find a calibartion disc like AVIA or DVE.

Using the THX optimizer is fine, but it is mainly only for that movie.

So what may look good when you calibarte for that movie, may not look good on other movies.

Your doing good so far though man in getting a good picture.