Blu-ray and HD-DVD Join Forces

[tpizarro]

http://dvd.ign.com/articles/606/606542p1.html

[soze]

i wonder what they would agree to...would it be compatible formats? we'll have to see

[Ratman]

Compatible formats?
Well yeah... but hopefully Sony has wised up to the fact that they cannot 'monopolize' a format and need to 'play nice' with others.

Not that what they try to introduce isn't good technology, but that they need to compromise and think about consumer acceptance and affordability. Let's think...
Betamax
SACD
Minidisc
Walkman

IMO... it's better to share than get nothing. I hope that only 'one' format is agreed upon. Everyone wins.

[LeeS]

I just read about a mixture of both technologies. Toshiba HD DVD technology because it is compatible with current manufacturing technologies, will cost less. Combine that with Sony's multi layer technology and we should have something good.

Remember they both use blue lasers.

We can only hope,
Lee

[rudyusmc1980]

it's going to get watered down, that's my guess...

[wifeB8]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=technologyNews&storyID=8431711 :D :D :D

[Matt27]

From the looks of it, it looks like blu-ray won the war!!!

[57U]

Elsewhere on the web there was a rebuttal from Toshiba denying this. This appears to be "grandstanding" by Sony. There is no resolution (yet)

Edit, here's the Toshiba statement.

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2005_05/pr1001.htm

[wifeB8]

At this point it appears only the disc structure will survive. If that is true backward compatibility will probably go out the door. Not good for consumers.

[Matt27]

Thanks for the link, wow looks like they changed their mind

[wifeB8]

Hey Sony!............So what’s your advantage over HD DVD?

http://www.hometheatermag.com/news/051105toshiba/

[57U]

Talks appear to be going nowhere...

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=UTJV4URPE0YOSQSNDBESKHA?articleID=163103901

[57U]

Higher level talks now scheduled...

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=internetNews&storyID=2005-05-17T040842Z_01_MOR714840_RTRIDST_0_OUKIN-TECH-JAPAN-DVD.XML

[wifeB8]

Good news about Toshiba and HD DVD holding firm. IMO they have an edge in this battle in almost ever front now. My biggest concern was that talks would stalemate and delay the release of their format. Now it appears that Toshiba will continue without a format unification and deliver their HD DVD products in late 2005.

[gparris]

TWO formats = No Thank You.

We do not need a format war again.

Sony never learns from its mistakes (Beta, MiniDisc).
You would think that by now.
My understanding is that the Playstation 3 recently unveiled is going to use Blu-ray, so if that holds, Sony is just "playing" with Toshiba...too bad.

[oman321]

http://www.twice.com/article/CA603110.html?verticalid=820&industry=News&industryid=23096&pubdate=05/23/2005

Toshiba aint messing around it seems. You can register to get full article, but the first few lines seem to say it all.

[JQuinn]

Well, so much for a Blu-ray/HD-DVD merger. :( Read it and weep.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=9617

[oman321]

:boo2: That's too bad. Let the War begin... :shootout: :boxer:

[gparris]

"Let the War begin" means: Let the market decide
Translated: Early adopters get a 50-50 chance on what format survives, how much money they put into hardware and software and which hardware becomes a door-stop.
What many will do: Wait and watch their standard DVDs, some on upconverting players.
What I will do: (see above).

[Ratman]

IMO... the "winner" (for TV use, not PC) may be determined by availability of media (movies) in one of the formats. And perhaps... the first one 'out of the gate'.

If one or the other hits the shelves by the holidays, with a good selection of movies, they may get the edge in the race.

[Splicer]

As much as I hate to say it, Sony may just have the edge over Toshiba on this one.

With the Beta/VHS fiasco, the Beta was proven to be of higher quality but it was the capacity that was the problem. This time Blu-Ray has the capacity while HD-DVD does not.

[57U]

Too many threads to follow, but the latest HD-DVD (triple layer?) has almost the same memory as Blu-Ray. HD-DVD has the advantage of fitting in more easily (less expensively) with current production platforms. I'm not saying which will "win" or what'll happen, just making a couple of statements.

[cnyreject]

Well seeing that I just bought my first progressive DVD player earlier this year. I guess I'm set for the next year or two. Let them fight it out!

Personally I will wait to see what the consumers preference will be, if there is dual formats, then buy one. Hopefully, also by then, the price should also start to drop.

Anyway, I will just sit back and watch, with some amusement, as the two companies :shootout: battle it out. May the best format win!! : :rockon:

[Ratman]

With the Beta/VHS fiasco, the Beta was proven to be of higher quality but it was the capacity that was the problem. This time Blu-Ray has the capacity while HD-DVD does not.

From a recording perspective... I agree.

But with today's consumers, that may not be applicable or of major concern. Today:
Most individuals purchase/rent DVD's.
You can't copy now (easily anyway and it'll be more difficult moving forward).
DVR's/PC's are the recording preference.

From a playback perspective... as long as you can get three hours of material in HD on either format, capacity differences are not that big of an issue.

[Splicer]

Those are valid points to be sure. But isn't the next natural progression to be recording HD material? Also the actual Quality of this 'triple layer' just sounds suspect to me.

[Ratman]

But isn't the next natural progression to be recording HD material?

Yes... but it's not like the old days when video tape was the only avenue for recording.

So assuming you can record HD programs on either format, what's the max time/storage for Blu-Ray? 3 hours?
HD-DVD? 2 hours? (hypothetical)

It's not like you can record at LP/EP speeds for maximum capacity. That defeats the purpose of high definition DVD's.

Will they be RW format or write-once? (who knows)

Again... I believe that the 'higher storage' capacity may have the edge for the PC world. But for J6P in the TV/Movie world, either format will be satisfactory for purchase/rental. For recording... HDD's (DVR/PC) will be the recorder of choice to archive to a high-def DVD.

I stand by, 'the first one out prevails'. I guess time will tell.
BTW... price (hardware and software) will also dictate who 'stays' in the lead.

[57U]

I believe each layer of HD-DVD records about 15 GB. Plenty of room for movies and extras if required (on 2 or 3 layer disks) At 19.4 Mb/sec (OTA equivalent - 9 GB/hour), that would give plenty of room, or they could increase bitrate (Like D-VHS).

[Splicer]

Would increasing the bitrate be better?

[57U]

As you know, you can sometimes get compression artifacts like macroblocking on TV signals if there's a lot of action on screen. This is due to compression of the signal from the original over 1Gb/sec to about 19 Gb/sec (OTA and uncompressed cable).

So the same thing can happen on HD-DVDs, however, it's not that simple, because when they do the encoding of the signal onto the DVD, they can do variable bitrate sampling, which can counteract such compression artifacts. This is also done on current SD DVDs. The higher bitrate would mean less chance of compression artifacts, so yes, it would be "better".

[gparris]

Isn't there a MPEG4 DVD player or something close to it from Windows Media that is even better? Aren't both these formats writing with blue lasers using MPEG2(still)?
I checked the forum threads, but it seems this is either missing or has fallen out of "favour" in discussion and the news, too.

[Brian@BBY]

the obivous winner of this format war will be Sony. Had Microsoft used the HD-DVD format in the XBOX360 as originally suspected it may have been more interesting. Being that Sony is using Blu-Ray in the PS3 everyone who buys a ps3 will have a blu-ray player by default. With an existing user base that large, that quickly... how can it fail? The type of people playing games these days (the majority) isn't 10 yr olds, it's guys in their early to late 20's. Even the UMD format has been pretty successfull. I truly beleive that the Game Consoles will be the straw that broke the camels back on 480i. With video games now HI DEF, And ALL big screen tv's HI DEF and more and more HI DEF broadcasts the days of measily 480 lines of resolution are comming to an end. Im quite frankly pretty damn excited as i've been 100% in support of this since the day i saw HD for the first time. Either way...we'll all win even if we end up with the "wrong" player initially. (BTW, My dads sony Betamax still works flawlessly some 20+ yrs later) finding tapes for it at Best Buy or wal mart however is impossible!

[Matt27]

Like ratman said, who ever makes to the public first and has the most library of movies is the winner.

It just may be Blu-ray since MGM alone along with sony have a hell of a lot of movies!

[rewjr]

"Like ratman said, who ever makes to the public first and has the most library of movies is the winner."

It just may be HD-DVD since 3 major studios along with IMAX have ageed to release the first 100 titles to go along with the debuted toshiba player for the all important fall Christmas selling season .

I for one think HD-DVD has the edge because the all important Walmart consumer will go for the cheaper player and cheaper to produce and therefore cheaper to sell media .

This is truly another dejavu Beta moment for Sony and we will soon see another failed product added to the SmithSonyian Museum ..:)

As for the Blueray in the PS3 that will make it so expensive no Walmart consumer will be able to afford it ...a big gamble ...

[Brian@BBY]

who says there has to be only one format?

[Ratman]

The knowledgable consumers and myself that have been continually robbed and inconvenienced by multiple formats because the "big boys" want to monopolize the market share.

And... "Universal" players are not the answer. All that does is add complexity to the hardware and jack up the prices even further.

[gparris]

Ratman, you couldn't have wrote that better.

As for me, all I need is to have to dig thru two types of DVD formats at my favourite store, no way.

Just because Sony and Toshiba can't play nice and get it together, I will not have their "mess" to contend with with multiple formats.
I still have memories as others do, of having a Beta and VHS player hanging around.

Don't these two realize how confusing it will be for the the standard consumer (maybe not us forum members) will have to deal with even if they KNOW what HDTV is and how to get it?

[Kenetics]

I just received this spam message in my work email. I don't recognize the sender (he has a typical junk email address). I have no idea why it was even sent!
Dear Electronics Enthusiast:
In the home-video past, it's not necessarily the superior product that wins the day. Rather it's the format that has the support of the film studios. While Hollywood hasn't yet pledged exclusive allegiance to either format, HD-DVD seems to have more support in Tinseltown.(end of message)

Strange....

BTW, any idea how much these new DVD's will cost?

[Ratman]

With HD-DVD being able to use existing manufacturing plants where B/R requires re-engineering, I'd expect that B/R would be at a higher cost to the consumer.

[Digital Doug]

The knowledgable consumers and myself that have been continually robbed and inconvenienced by multiple formats because the "big boys" want to monopolize the market share.

And... "Universal" players are not the answer. All that does is add complexity to the hardware and jack up the prices even further.

exactly the reason why multi-channel music has largely flopped. SACD or DVD-A? You had to choose for so long....then universal players came, but were expensive.

time for the manufacturers to stop think with their wallets and get their heads outta their keisters.

[gparris]

People will buy a product that they can use no matter where (backwardly compatible) and if they can concieve, with the right marketing, that it is better for a realisically higher price they will buy it...by realistically, I mean what the market will bear.

For example, I have had folks spend more on a better DVD player for the main room and the cheaper ones for the bedroom or children's rooms because they understand the features and differences in the product line.

Sony and Toshiba are doing the equivalent of as if they had introduced DVD players that are progressive scan-only instead of interlaced and progressive, or Dolby Digital and DTS output separate, etc.
That would not have worked well, either, but you did not see that happen, so why start, now?