Directv and DVI HDCP

[RadioDave]

The article written by Brian Weatherhead, "The Digital Link: Understanding the Digital Home Video Controversy on Commercial Content (Copy) Protection - February, 2002" does mention that "There are DVI display devices on the market now, with more on the horizon. Dish network and DirecTV both have products that incorporate DVI. Connectivity is guarded with the HDCP encryption protocol." Does this mean that the non-DVI/HDCP HDTV's will be fine just using the component
output of the Directv receiver or will you still need an HDTV later on down the line with a DVI/HDCP input?

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_1/feature-article-digital-home-video-2-2002.html

Thanks for any help, Dave.

[Harvey S]

non dvi/hdcp TV sets will still display everything your satellite receiver gets but some of the material, possibly all of the true hdtv (1080i or 720p), will only flow through the DVI connector. If your TV doesn't have that connector you can get the same program through the component inputs that all present HD capable sets provide, but at reduced resolution. So your HDTV won't take advantage of true HD material. There is a possibility that Over The Air HDTV signals might still be used but probably the tuner needed to pick them up will also have a DVI output and therefore be as crippled as the other signal sources.

[Jedimaster2023]

So, in essence...the Sony HD-100 that I currently own will be worthless when HDTV is distributed through DVI?

[Harvey S]

You have cut to the chase. Your non-dvi equipped set would not be provided with a signal better than 480 lines of resolution if this proposal is adopted. It is being debated in congress now and is backed by the Motion Picture Association of America and other contetn providers, including SONY.

[mquinn25]

You know....I can see someone selling a "black box" that will allow you to plug this new input into the box and then plug the box into your 1080i input. It is inevitable that someone somewhere will defeat this. I also know that Mitsubishi PROMISES that there sets are upgradeable.

Do I think it is concerning? Yes, but I also think it's the same as almost every other attempt to thwart piracy...it can and will be defeated. In this case, I would also imagine converters would have to be made available on the "white market" as well.

THe author makes a great point....are consumers vendictive? YES. I know I would be.....will be :-)

[DLeMore]

Originally posted by Harvey S
non dvi/hdcp TV sets will still display everything your satellite receiver gets but some of the material, possibly all of the true hdtv (1080i or 720p), will only flow through the DVI connector. If your TV doesn't have that connector you can get the same program through the component inputs that all present HD capable sets provide, but at reduced resolution. So your HDTV won't take advantage of true HD material. There is a possibility that Over The Air HDTV signals might still be used but probably the tuner needed to pick them up will also have a DVI output and therefore be as crippled as the other signal sources.

I don't agree with the above entirely. The problem right now is that consumers donot have any recorder that can record HDTV. Taking that into mind, all "future recording components" will require a DVI connection from the external ota tuner/satellite receiver to the recording device (not TV). This method will by pass the problem of making all current HDTVs obsolete. I am also certain that the manufacturers will sell external DVI equipment to enable recording to any device that might require it. Recording HDTV in the home is not the real problem....it's broadcasting video content(HBO Movies, Showtime Movies ETC. on the internet. Any encryption will apply to the recording device and not the HDTV thereby giving you full resolution in the home.

[Harvey S]

Mquinn25 : NO black box will be licensed to use the dencryption engine. Bootleg boxes will not work because the standard defines an embedded code (in the HDTV signal) that can disable unauthorized dencryption chips.

DLemore: As for recording devices with a DVI input, that is unlikely and if done probably won't provide a high rez signal for recording. The whole point of the DVI/HDCP standard is to prevent recording true HDTV, so why would they license someone to use the dencrytion engine in a recorder ? The MPAA can't require anyone to build a recorder one way or the other but they can PREVENT use of the deencryption engine and disable unlicensed applications.

The manufacturers won't sell external boxes with DVI outputs for recording and highres component outputs for display because then it would be possible to make a recorder that captures the high rez signal from the component outputs. The stratetgy is to require that the only high rez signal available is encrypted, thus nonrecordable, all the way into the receiving device (e.g. your HDTV set).

[DLeMore]

Originally posted by Harvey S
Mquinn25 : NO black box will be licensed to use the dencryption engine. Bootleg boxes will not work because the standard defines an embedded code (in the HDTV signal) that can disable unauthorized dencryption chips.

DLemore: As for recording devices with a DVI input, that is unlikely and if done probably won't provide a high rez signal for recording. The whole point of the DVI/HDCP standard is to prevent recording true HDTV, so why would they license someone to use the dencrytion engine in a recorder ? The MPAA can't require anyone to build a recorder one way or the other but they can PREVENT use of the deencryption engine and disable unlicensed applications.

The manufacturers won't sell external boxes with DVI outputs for recording and highres component outputs for display because then it would be possible to make a recorder that captures the high rez signal from the component outputs. The stratetgy is to require that the only high rez signal available is encrypted, thus nonrecordable, all the way into the receiving device (e.g. your HDTV set).

Let me repeat........The Motion picture industry does not object to recording Standard or High Definition content which includes copywrite movies at home according to the laws that are in place at this time per their discusion with Congress but do object to broadcasting video content on the internet. A solution " has not" been implemented or approved by the FCC for your so called method of encrypting information before it reaches the HDTV
I do not know where you get your information it would be in your best interest to study the laws of the land and do your homework, as I have done. Some of the HDTVs that have "built in tuners" do have new DVI outputs to connect to "new" recorders that "may" require copy protection.

[mquinn25]

Originally posted by Harvey S
Mquinn25 : NO black box will be licensed to use the dencryption engine. Bootleg boxes will not work because the standard defines an embedded code (in the HDTV signal) that can disable unauthorized dencryption chips.

HarveyS, I am not saying any "black box" device would be legal by any means. All I am saying is that people find ways to defeat these types of things. For example, currently, there are thousands of people using illegal cards in there satellite systems. They changed the cards, and someone else found a way around it. Let's say this super secret decryption code is embedded in the HDTV signal.....someone WILL....be able to figure out the code.....someone WILL decrypt it...someone WILL build a cheap device that will get around this.....just like they do with the satellite H-Cards.

This is all really a mute point....the opinion I wanted to present here was really to point out that an HDTV you buy today is NOT very likely to be obsolete or unable to display a 1080i picture tomorrow.....and if it were, you would also imagine that the TV manufacturers would most likely be forced into building a legal converter for existing sets. Just my opinion....

:-)

[Harvey S]

Originally posted by DLeMore


A solution " has not" been implemented or approved by the FCC for your so called method of encrypting information before it reaches the HDTV
I do not know where you get your information it would be in your best interest to study the laws of the land and do your homework, as I have done.

Apparently when you did your homework you forgot to read the article cited at the start of this thread, in Radiodave's message. The HDCP in DVI/HDCP is the encryption standard that has been proposed by the MPAA. The current controversy centers on whether congress will pass a law implementing this standard. Such a law is being pushed by the MPAA and sponsored by Senator Hollings. If it passes I guess then you will study it and know what we are talking about. The FCC may or may not be relevant. Do they have anything to say about satellite or cable signals ? Can they ignore a law passed by congress?

[DLeMore]

Originally posted by Harvey S


Apparently when you did your homework you forgot to read the article cited at the start of this thread, in Radiodave's message. The HDCP in DVI/HDCP is the encryption standard that has been proposed by the MPAA. The current controversy centers on whether congress will pass a law implementing this standard. Such a law is being pushed by the MPAA and sponsored by Senator Hollings. If it passes I guess then you will study it and know what we are talking about. The FCC may or may not be relevant. Do they have anything to say about satellite or cable signals ? Can they ignore a law passed by congress?
Things to remember:
1. this has only been"proposed by the MPAA"
2. the MPAA has proposed other standards as well(have not been approved.)
3. Senator Hollings is only one person(other congressmen have already said they would not approve such a system.
4. any encryption must not prevent virgin recording in the home.
5. the fcc and congress have already set a standard to broadcasters for transmission of digital signals and because of cost to local affiliates will not be changed.
6. any proposed legislation means nothing until it has been passed by the majority. Ask Senator McCain about this one(campaign finance reform)
7. the MPAA should be banned from public television if they have such a major problem with copy protection of "their content". This might be the only method congress can follow in order to keep everyone happy. This country needs to maintain high standards and keeping "hollywood filth" off the airwaves would be a great way to start.
8. It is just hard for me to believe that there will be that many people thats just sitting around waiting to mass produce everything the MPAA produces. I have a Pioneer Pro 720 HD tv along with a Samsung OTA digital tuner, 4dtv with hd receiver, and I have "no" desire to record HD movies from Showtime or HBO and certainly would not record HD content from the Satellite Cable Sports network. Think of how many times movies are shown over and over again on HBO or Showtime" who would need a recorder?" You can rent DVDs at Blockbuster and Netflix any time you want. The hotest selling item at "Best Buy" are not tvs its "copy protected DVDs". It is my understanding that DVDs using Blue Laser to record and play will be out within three years I'm sure some copy protection will be needed to prevent mass production on the internet of anything recorded using this device. But any signal transmitted over the airwaves, should not alter existing HD tvs, it should only alter the recording device to prevent 2ed generation recording. I would predict an encryption method such as the method used in recording audio by the RIAA to be also used in video to prevent usage on computer's harddrive and forwarding methods on the internet. I don't buy as many audio discs because of copy protection......I can't make my own mix of music. In regards to The FCC question the answer is: yes! The Congress and the FCC must agree on this standard before a law can be passed. By the way, a lot of Radiodave's comments are only "speculative" and should be taken with a grain of salt. The FCC has already said they wanted HD tv to be the standard "not just digital".....How can HD tv be the standard if the HD signal has be altered to prevent full definition. Affiliates have the right to data cast and split their Hd signal during non primetime hours but will eventually be required to carry Hd signals "unaltered" so many hours in a 24 hour period according to the standards set by the FCC. The MPAA cannot dictate an encryption system that would change this standard and I don't think the public would be too happy with such a system either. The FCC has the right to tell how a satellite will broadcast its signal to the public and it's now doing just that to XM's satellite audio feeds contested by a lawsuit brought on by the American Broadcasters Association. If an encryption system is used by Direct/dish tv for the sake of the MPAA it will have to be approved by the "FCC" And if implimented I would say "God help Showtime, HBO and HD net." If the public is prevented from time-shifting their favorite HD or digital programs by the usage of recordable DVDs or TIVo's hard drives Congress will hear an outcry they have never heard before and I won't mention the possible lawsuites brought on by over two million who have already bought HDTVs and receivers. I don't think The MPAA wants that kind of headache. I also have a comment about "The Digitallink" article.....I recently read an story in a trade magazine that said a lot of HD tv makers are putting on DVi/HDCp outputs in order to "calm the confusing public" about copy protection and to help move their HD stock. It said this copy protection system has not been approved by "this Government". Just because a tv has such a output does not mean it will be used. No one knows at this time what system of encryption will be used, if any. MY C-Band Satellite receiver was bought over 5 years ago and has some kind of encryption control system in it to prevent me from recording movies.....that system or method has never been used.