OTA digital channels - frequency assignments?

[jco]

Anybody know where I can find a list that shows the frequency assignments of the OTA Digital TV channels?

For example, my TV states that OTA channel 4.1 is 521 MHZ which is
UHF right? I would have thought it was in VHF band like ANALOG channel
4, but apparently not.

Anyway, in order to get the right type of antenna and antenna setup I would
think the frequencies matter and I need to know what they are so any help
on this would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
JCO

[fredinva]

Most, but not all digital/HD is on UHF.

go to antennaweb.org for your location and assignments

fred

[Ratman]

Check www.antennaweb.org

That will provide you with the actual channel and the PSIP channel.

Channels 2-13 are VHF, 14-69 are UHF.

[jco]

Channels 2-13 are VHF, 14-69 are UHF.
this is correct for the analog channels but the digital
channels are all different. Digital channel 4.1 for example
is UHF while analog channel 4 is VHF.

FWIW, I went to the antennaweb site which is useful, thanks, but there
frequency data is not clear, they dont list the actual channel frequencies
there but they do list whether a UHF or VHF antenna is needed. They do
have some frequency information there but it makes no sense and it isnt
explained. the frequencies listed are not correct if they are Mhz so there must
be some conversion table I cant find...
jco

[Ratman]

http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/catv-ch.html
http://www.qsl.net/atn/library/Broadcast_freqs.htm
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/cable-tv2.htm
http://www.panix.com/~clay/scanning/Frequencies/handy-info/tvchfreq.txt
http://www.jneuhaus.com/fccindex/cablech.html

As for UHF digital channels showing up as "4.1" that's a 'virtual channel' or re-mapped channel, which is a one of the functions of "PSIP".
http://www.sarnoff.com/products_services/government_solutions/psip_tutorial/index.asp

[jco]

Thanks for the lists but these have nothing on the frequency assignments of the digital ATSC channels. these are all the old analog channels, both OTA and cable. I did a google but still havent found anything yet.....all I know so far is that ATSC 4.1 is 521 Mhz which is in the UHF band....

[fredinva]

Geeeez, just plop your zip code in antennaweb.org

[Ratman]

Thanks for the lists but these have nothing on the frequency assignments of the digital ATSC channels. these are all the old analog channels, both OTA and cable. I did a google but still havent found anything yet.....all I know so far is that ATSC 4.1 is 521 Mhz which is in the UHF band....

Is the toast burning? :whistle:

All digital and analog channels use the frequency allocations permitted by the FCC (for OTA)! Doesn't matter if it's NTSC or ATSC.

For example:

Station WPVI (ABC) in Philadelphia
Analog channel 6 (VHF)
Digital channel. 64 (UHF)
PSIP remaps to 6.1

As usual... you are making something quite simple into a technical mountain unecessarily. :nono2:

BTW... I didn't see any 521MHz allocations in any of the tables, but the closest is UHF channel 22.

Antennaweb.org gives you all the info you need.

[kevinw]

Thanks for the lists but these have nothing on the frequency assignments of the digital ATSC channels. these are all the old analog channels, both OTA and cable. I did a google but still havent found anything yet.....all I know so far is that ATSC 4.1 is 521 Mhz which is in the UHF band....
Yes this does
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/catv-ch.html
BUT it just doesnt say DIGITAL.. because it doesnt matter . A channel frequency is the same wether broadcasted digitaly or analog.

[jco]

Yes this does
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/catv-ch.html
BUT it just doesnt say DIGITAL.. because it doesnt matter . A channel frequency is the same wether broadcasted digitaly or analog.
you dont understand the question. When they list channel 4 frequency for example they are listing the ANALOG channel four frequency. DIGITAL CHANNEL 4.1, 4.2 etc, are not even close to the ANALOG channel 4 frequency. So when I said all these pages dont list the frequency assignments of the DIGITAL CHANNELS I meant it and it means something.
DIGTAL CHANNEL assignments are not the same as the old analog ones.
Yes, whether a channel is analog or digital doesnt matter if its assigned a frequency but the new digital (ATSC) channel freq. assignments are what I am looking for, not these old ANALOG channel assignments...

When I say channel frequency assignments I have to ask or find out because
its not like FM radio where 101.5 is the frequency assignment and there arent any "channel numbers". with digital TV there are channel numbers, just like the old analog TV scheme but I cant seem to find out what the actual frequencies are for the new digital channel numbers....

[mjones73]

you dont understand the question. When they list channel 4 frequency for example they are listing the ANALOG channel four frequency. DIGITAL CHANNEL 4.1, 4.2 etc, are not even close to the ANALOG channel 4 frequency. So when I said all these pages dont list the frequency assignments of the DIGITAL CHANNELS I meant it and it means something.
DIGTAL CHANNEL assignments are not the same as the old analog ones.
Yes, whether a channel is analog or digital doesnt matter if its assigned a frequency but the new digital (ATSC) channel freq. assignments are what I am looking for, not these old ANALOG channel assignments...

When I say channel frequency assignments I have to ask or find out because
its not like FM radio where 101.5 is the frequency assignment and there arent any "channel numbers". with digital TV there are channel numbers, just like the old analog TV scheme but I cant seem to find out what the actual frequencies are for the new digital channel numbers....

You don't understand that the digital channels are just broadcast on the same frequencies as regular VHF and UHF channels apparently, if your 4.1 for example is actually UHF channel 39, look up the frequency for channel 39 and you'll have your answer....

[kevinw]

you dont understand the question. When they list channel 4 frequency for example they are listing the ANALOG channel four frequency. DIGITAL CHANNEL 4.1, 4.2 etc, are not even close to the ANALOG channel 4 frequency. So when I said all these pages dont list the frequency assignments of the DIGITAL CHANNELS I meant it and it means something.
DIGTAL CHANNEL assignments are not the same as the old analog ones.
Yes, whether a channel is analog or digital doesnt matter if its assigned a frequency but the new digital (ATSC) channel freq. assignments are what I am looking for, not these old ANALOG channel assignments...

When I say channel frequency assignments I have to ask or find out because
its not like FM radio where 101.5 is the frequency assignment and there arent any "channel numbers". with digital TV there are channel numbers, just like the old analog TV scheme but I cant seem to find out what the actual frequencies are for the new digital channel numbers....
No kidding it is not the same as FM.. BUT you don't understand. Digital can broadcast multpile channels on the same frequency. We understand what you want, you just don't know what your are asking for.

IT DOESN"T MATTER if it is ANALOG or DIGITAL the frequencies remain the same. They did not invent new ones. Wheter brodcast digitally or analog the the frequency is the same . Ch 62 is always the same frequency regardless of how broadcast... :stop:

[Ratman]

you dont understand the question. ....

The question is understood... you don't understand the answers.

Did you read the link in regard to PSIP... how it re-maps to a "virtual channel"?

Channel 62 analog or channel 62 digital... it uses the same broadcast frequency. It just uses a different 'modulation'.

[fredinva]

JCO,

Since it appears all your DT stations are UHF, simply get a CM 4228 preferrably with pre-amp. And you have different azimuths so get a rotor as well.

fred

[mjones73]

To add to this, each digital channel has 19.2 MBs per second of bandwidth at their given frequency, when you have a channel broadcasting multiple subchannels such as the 4.1 and 4.2 example given, the station is slicing up that 19.2 MBs and allocating a percentage of the bandwidth to each of those subchannels. Each digital channel can be split up to 6 seperate channels. The PSIP infomation added to the data stream informs the ATSC tuner of how the channels are configured so it know how many sub channels there are on a given frequency. There isn't a seperate frequency range for each sub channel. The flaw in all this is when a station adds addtional sub channels, they are robbing bandwidth from the HD channel.

[Ratman]

The flaw in all this is when a station adds addtional sub channels, they are robbing bandwidth from the HD channel.

Nice...

Now you've given him fodder for yet another crusade. :rofl2:

[jco]

You don't understand that the digital channels are just broadcast on the same frequencies as regular VHF and UHF channels apparently, if your 4.1 for example is actually UHF channel 39, look up the frequency for channel 39 and you'll have your answer....
none of these web pages give any cross reference of "OLD" UHF channel numbers being used for the new digital channels. Thats the point, I have no information what the actual frequencies are used ( or even the OLD UHF channel numbers) for the new ATSC digital channel NUMBERS.

[jco]

No kidding it is not the same as FM.. BUT you don't understand. Digital can broadcast multpile channels on the same frequency. We understand what you want, you just don't know what your are asking for.

IT DOESN"T MATTER if it is ANALOG or DIGITAL the frequencies remain the same. They did not invent new ones. Wheter brodcast digitally or analog the the frequency is the same . Ch 62 is always the same frequency regardless of how broadcast... :stop:
What? , we are going in circles here thats not true - channel 62 on the old scheme was an analog channel at XYZ Megahertz. The new ATSC digital channel 62.1 ( or 62.2 etc) carrier frequency has nothing to do with the old XYZ frequency used for analog broadcasts. I explained that in the first post, analog channel 4 is in a totally different frequency band than the new digital channel 4.1. So you dont make any sense when you say the analog and digital channels numbering schemes are using the same frequencies, ( that's what I thought at first myself too ) because they arent even close. i.e. the new ATSC DISGITAL CHANNEL NUMBERS have a completely different frequency allocation than the old analog channel numbers did. And the web pages linked are only showing the old analog channel number- frequency allocations...

[kevinw]

You will argue about anything,,
First we explained the oddity of a UHF channel lisitng itself on the tuner as a VHF because of something called PSIP. It may say Ch4 but it is still broadcasting at 48


-DT 14.1 TFA ARLINGTON VA 331° 3.7 15
* red - uhf WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX WASHINGTON DC 339° 4.7 36
* red - uhf WRC-DT 4.1 NBC WASHINGTON DC 331° 3.7 48
* red - uhf WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS WASHINGTON DC 338° 4.2 34
* red - uhf WHUT-DT 33 PBS WASHINGTON DC TBD 337° 4.3 33
* red - uhf WETA-DT 26.1 PBS WASHINGTON DC 275° 5.1 27
* red - uhf WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC WASHINGTON DC 338° 4.2 39
* red - uhf WDCA-DT 20.1 UPN WASHINGTON DC 338° 4.2 35
* red - uhf WMPT-DT 22.6 PBS ANNAPOLIS MD 82° 24.2 42
* red - uhf WBDC-DT 50.1 WB WASHINGTON DC 18° 4.4 51
* blue - uhf WPXW-DT 66.1 PAX MANASSAS VA 255° 17.5 43
* violet - uhf WNUV-DT 54.1 WB BALTIMORE MD 45° 36.7 40
* violet - uhf WJZ-DT 13.1 CBS BALTIMORE MD 45° 36.5 38

Is this part clear now?
Now looking at the list below you can see ch 48 broadcasts at a frequency of
AIR 48 675.25 UHF
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/catv-ch.html

Since no city has the channel broadcasting on the same frequency- (I am sure you knew this part) we do not have to worry about the signal geting confused by a tuner tha accepts both NTSC and ATSC standards.

Lastly ATSC and NTSC are broadcast on the same frequencies- Well actually the only frequencies allowed for OTA -see the above link again. They just use different broadcast methods on the same allocated frequencies.

Do you understand now? I am sorry there is not a handy dandy list pre made for you. Fortunately there are only 7 ATSC channels broacasting in the DC area and I have charted 1 for you.

If an antenna choice is next, please post YOUR antennaweb results for more help in choosing one.

[jco]

based on your own posted data above, channel 4 is NOT broadcasting their analog signal and digital signals on the same frequencies. channel 4 analog signal is around 63MHZ in VHF band and their digital signal (4.1) is old analog channel 48 freq. in the UHF band. WHY WHY WHY do you keep saying that these ANALOG and DIGITAL signals are both being broadcast on the same frequency when they ARE NOT????

[Ratman]

They are... look past the trees and you'll see the forest.

Re-read the posts above.

Analog or digital... they use the FCC allocated broadcast frequencies.

Analog = channel 4 (VHF)
digital = 48 (UHF)
PSIP virtually maps to 4.x

They don't use the "same" frequency. They use one assigned (in the case) VHF channel (frequency) for analog and one UHF channel (frequency) for digital.

All over the country... two channels. One analog, one digital using the allocated bandwidth assigned by the FCC.

WHY WHY WHY is this difficult?

[mjones73]

based on your own posted data above, channel 4 is NOT broadcasting their analog signal and digital signals on the same frequencies. channel 4 analog signal is around 63MHZ in VHF band and their digital signal (4.1) is old analog channel 48 freq. in the UHF band. WHY WHY WHY do you keep saying that these ANALOG and DIGITAL signals are both being broadcast on the same frequency when they ARE NOT????

The point made was there is no new frequency range out there for the digital channels, they use the same alloted range analog VHF and UHF channels use, no one said the same channel uses the same frequency for both it's analog and digital channel...

[kevinw]

based on your own posted data above, channel 4 is NOT broadcasting their analog signal and digital signals on the same frequencies. channel 4 analog signal is around 63MHZ in VHF band and their digital signal (4.1) is old analog channel 48 freq. in the UHF band. WHY WHY WHY do you keep saying that these ANALOG and DIGITAL signals are both being broadcast on the same frequency when they ARE NOT????
If you read closely or at least read everything You would see-
red - uhf WRC-DT 4.1 NBC WASHINGTON DC 331° 3.7 48
4.1=48. The digital broadcasts on UHF 48 - the exact same programming for those with out a digital tuner broadcast on ch4. Now when viewing digital channel 48 Your tuner will show it as 4.1 DUE TO THE MIRACLE OF PSIP, which was the first thing we have tried to xplainED to you.

WE HAVE NEVER SAID SAME FREQUENCY or CHANNEL--YOU DO - DIGITAL ch 4 is broadcasting on UHF 48. It is called ch 4 to not confuse people...

[jco]

in post #19 KEVINW WROTE
"
Lastly ATSC and NTSC are broadcast on the same frequencies- Well actually the only frequencies allowed for OTA -see the above link again. They just use different broadcast methods on the same allocated frequencies. "

And I responded to it. You did not state that the the ATSC and the NTSC signals are using the same set of of frequency allocations and that each station is using tWO different channels to send their analog and digital channels. you said the above which reads as that they were using different broadcasts methods for the two signals on the SAME SINGLE FREQUENCY.

Dont criticize my reading, its your writing that needs improvement but you did not
state what you should have if thats what you meant.

[Ratman]

You're welcome.

[kevinw]

in post #19 KEVINW WROTE
"
Lastly ATSC and NTSC are broadcast on the same frequencies- Well actually the only frequencies allowed for OTA -see the above link again. They just use different broadcast methods on the same allocated frequencies. "

And I responded to it. You did not state that the the ATSC and the NTSC signals are using the same set of of frequency allocations and that each station is using tWO different channels to send their analog and digital channels. you said the above which reads as that they were using different broadcasts methods for the two signals on the SAME SINGLE FREQUENCY.

Dont criticize my reading, its your writing that needs improvement but you did not
state what you should have if thats what you meant.
I have no idea what you are trying to state BUT do you have this figured out now?
Ok how about Where did I say:
the above which reads as that they were using different broadcasts methods for the two signals on the SAME SINGLE FREQUENCY

[jco]

QUOTE by KEVINW in post #19 ***Lastly ATSC and NTSC are broadcast on the same frequencies*****

in post #19 is where you said it.
jco

[kevinw]

QUOTE by KEVINW in post #19 ***Lastly ATSC and NTSC are broadcast on the same frequencies*****

in post #19 is where you said it.
jco
Yes they are. No channels are broadcasted on the same frequency at the same time in any on location. There are only x amount of frequencies allocated to broadcast televsion wether it is sent NTSC or ATSC but they are the same frequencies...
Is this not obvious?
I never said they were both broadcast on the same frequency at the same time -Even you know you can't do that...

[Extech]

You guys are killing me. JCO, What is missing is the word range. Digital and analog are not broadcast on the same frequency per channel number assigned but all digital and analog signals are broadcast in the same frequency range.

[rfwarrior]

http://www.fcc.gov/oet/dtv/tvchfreq.html
Here is a link to a chart providing the frequency assignments for each channel. You simply need to find the DTV channel assignment for the station you are interested in and look it up on the chart. An example would be KCRA-TV in the Sacramento area is on Analog channel 3 (61.25Mhz) and the DTV channel assignment is 35 (597.25Mhz) yet it shows up as 3-1 on my ATSC tuner equipped Television.
http://www.antennasdirect.com/HDTV_station_lists.html
Here is a link to a chart showing most TV stations in the US and the DTV channels assigned to them (the column titled "Digital Frequency"), simply check the previous chart to see what the actual frequency that channel number converts to.
You probably already figured this all out, but for those reading the post hopefully this will help.
I landed on this post because I am interested in building an antenna for 1 channel outside my reception area, to build a beam antenna for that channel I need to know the frequency.

[speters]

I understand the confusion. We have been told for a couple of years now that basically the whole reason for the DTV switch is so that the UHF band width would be abanded so that the FED could auction off that band width. And now all the available lists show that still better than 70% of the DTV channels are in the UHF band width. I thought all UFH channels were going to be re-assigned into the VHF band width which would be possible digitally, whereas it was not possible with analog requiring a 6MHz band width per channel. Can someone tell me (the FED has auctioned some of the UHF band width) if all OTA TV brodcast will eventually end up in the VHF band width?
I have been in the business of building MATV, SMATV, and CATV systems for nearly 30 years, so I do understand what the frequency allocations are.
Thank you :headb:

[Ratman]

Are DTV signals broadcast on special frequencies?

No. DTV broadcasts use exactly the same channels as regular analog television. While many DTV stations are now occupying UHF broadcast channels, broadcasters are allowed to move back to their original VHF or UHF TV channel once the transition to DTV is complete.

The only caveat is that TV channels 51 through 69 will be auctioned off for other uses at the end of the transition to digital TV. Stations who originally had analog channels in this band will have to move, no matter what.

One potential problem with re-using low VHF (2-6) TV channels for DTV is the possibility of interference from other signals during certain times of the year. "Skip" may bring in distant broadcasts on the same channel and create interference. Impulse noise is also a problem on low VHF channels. What’s more, the physical size of low VHF and high VHF antennas is much larger than that of a UHF antenna.

Tests so far seem to indicate that high VHF channels (7-13) are quite well suited for DTV broadcasts, and many broadcasters plan to move back to their high VHF channels at the end of the transition. VHF transmitters also cost much less money to operate than UHF transmitters.

[televisor]

Ok go here www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/north_american_broadcast_television_frequencies , Thats wikipedia.org/wiki/north _american_broadcast_television_frequencies. The digital channel numbering as an example is ,UHF = Ultra High Frequency channel 14 , 470 to 476 MHz. So from a certain point of view , one could say thats 6 MHz 'Wide'. Now in that 6 MHz , 1 analog tv channel will fit , However in that same 6 MHz. 4 digital tv channels will fit along with a lot of other digital data. This why the channel numbers will look like this 14.1 , 14.2 , 14.3 , 14.4 . Now I will take you to a new idea , The number after the . point like 14 point 4 is really just a place where a digital tv channel can be put in , that number can be 4 or any other number , like say 27. So you ask why? Well here is one example , Lets say that a local Analog channel 27 decides that it's to much money and effort to convert to digital , so they make a deal with the Digital UHF 14 channel to broadcast for them as a digital signal. So now you will see the channel 27 as the channel number 14.27. This is all so known as Virtual Channel Numbering. . If any one has questions , I can make the complex , simple. . Well Ok you got that idea Ok , It is also true that the number before the point can also be a virtual channel number , How so you ask? Well lets say as an example , you grew up with channel 7 being ABC , American Broadcasting Company. And now that it is after the digital transition and frequency reassignments have taken place , the station is really transmitting on channel 19. Now because all YOUR LIFE You have known channel 7 as ABC , the Digital Tv Station keeps the channel 7 number as what You See on the converter box or Tv , even though the real channel is UHF 19 . And YES with Digital Transmission , this and a lot more can be done. . . Please read my other posts because they are loaded down with information. In the purple bar close to the top of this page , click on 'search' and then click on 'advanced search' and then in the 'search by user name' box type in 'televisor.:usa1: