View Full Version : Choosing right player for 1080p sets?
HDTVoicing
09-18-2005, 06:20 AM
I was about to buy a Toshiba DLP 720p set this weekend, but a few things are confusing me right now.
1. 1080p DLP sets are around the corner, how much better are these new ones? Will they be only 10% higher price than the 720p sets, as claimed by the manufacturers?
2. Will a 1080i upconverting player be "compatible" with these new 1080p sets? Right now I can't find/see a DVD player than upconvert to 1080p? They mostly upconvert to 1080i.
3. Given the scarcity of 1080p sources, should I consider a up-converting DVD/Divx/WMD player like the JVC SRDVD-100U ProHD so that I can play some "TRUE HD" content on the new 1080p DLP sets?
Ratman
09-18-2005, 08:22 AM
1) They provide some picture improvement. Price is subjective.
2) Yes. All current upscaling DVD players up to 1080i only.
3) Seems like a waste for the limited material. Wait for HD-DVD/Blu-Ray.
HDTVoicing
09-18-2005, 08:57 AM
Regarding upconverting, most upconverting DVD players convert to 1080i, so if they are hooked up to a 1080p set that accepts and converts 1080i to 1080p, is this setup gonna be ok?
Has anyone here actually "seen" how big of the improvement of these 1080p sets over the current batch of 720p ones using the DVD upconverting method?
Matt27
09-18-2005, 12:34 PM
IMO wait for HD DVD's, it's not like regular dvd's are magically going to be HD resolutions given thet are only 480i.
IMO i have seen many of these upconverter players on the market,and demo'd at peoples houses and i got to say,there is hardly any improvement what so ever.In fact the scaling can add artifacts to the screen which was not in the original material.
So IMHO it's not worth the minamal improvement, just wait for the real deal coming next year.
Ratman
09-18-2005, 12:39 PM
Read this review... maybe it may provide you with some insight:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=861
There is a lot of insight in that article. I read it a while back in the magazine. This is not really a 1080P TV, like the new expensive Sonys, rather it's a 720P engine made to "wobulate" and provide an image like a 1080P TV.
Yet another case for us to be "careful" when talking about 1080p, much like the EDTVs "accept" HD inputs, this supposed 1080P TV gets there by "cheating" with supposedly good results nevertheless.
HDTVoicing
09-18-2005, 03:42 PM
thanks Ratman for that link, it helped tremendously. But at the end of the day, does it matter whether it's wobulation or true number of pixels on these new 1080p sets? How do they actually "perform" in real life, like can a viewer discern a difference? Hmm.. it seems like to answer these questions, I need to actually "SEE" these sets side by side? But none of the shops here, Future shop, Visions, A&B carry a 1080p LCD/DLP sets right now.
HDTVoicing
09-18-2005, 03:47 PM
IMO i have seen many of these upconverter players on the market,and demo'd at peoples houses and i got to say,there is hardly any improvement what so ever.In fact the scaling can add artifacts to the screen which was not in the original material. So IMHO it's not worth the minamal improvement, just wait for the real deal coming next year.
I haven't seen any upconverting DVD shows played on HDTVs before so I really don't know the difference yet, but most salesmen claim that if I don't get a upconverting DVD player with my new HDTV, the PQ is gonna suck. Is it really that bad?
Sigh, I would buy a HD-DVD/BR "today." But given their format war, who knows how long it'll drag on.
I guess I am kinda stuck, 'cause if I buy the best HDTV set today (720P) with a DVD upconverting player to play regular DVDs, my investment is only "worthwhile" for a VERY short period of time, before HD-DVD/BR and 1080p sets rush out the flood gate when? In the next couple of months? By the end of the year? Next year?
Ratman
09-18-2005, 05:15 PM
Son... get a 720p set and a progressive scan DVD player. It all gets upconverted to 720p anyway.
Your picture quality will not "suck".
1080p is not ready for primetime (too new) and HD-DVD/Blu-Ray is vaporware. Enjoy what's available now and proven technology.
... and when HD-DVD/Blu-Ray is available, it will look just dandy on a 720p HDTV.
HDTVoicing
09-19-2005, 04:05 AM
Ratman, thanks for the reassurance for the quality of 720p sets. But with 1080p "around the corner" I think it's coming out next month in Canadian market here, should I at least hold off for one more LONG month?
Ratman
09-19-2005, 07:52 AM
That's your call...
If your leaning towards 1080P, IMO, you'd be better to wait until spring or later. That way more sets will be on the market to choose. Also, it gives you a chance to see what the early adopters have to say and experience.
And... prices will drop by summer.
HDTVoicing
09-19-2005, 02:19 PM
Ratman, there is another option which I haven't considered before.
Since I think 1080p will shine through a larger set like 62", 72", so...
instead of buying a 56" 1080p next month like you said, I could save some money by buying a 46" 720p now ( :canada: Canada-only model), under the logic that smaller sets will not benefit "too much" from the enhanced resolution of 1080p.
With the extra cash I'll save (not really that much, about several hundred dollars) I could apply it to the larger 62" or even 72" 1080p sets (next year), whose screen size fully exploits the potential of 1080p?
Ratman
09-19-2005, 03:14 PM
Do what you think best.
I can only provide my opinion (right or wrong). You have to make the choice/purchase.
I don't know your income and can understand your eagerness to experience HDTV. But IMO... you're focused too strongly on 1080P technology.
IMO... too early, too new, no 1080p sources. Early adopters know the technology, understand the risks and .... have the expendable income.
I wish you well with your decision.
HDTVoicing
09-19-2005, 08:44 PM
Quick summary:
1. Yes Ratman you can sense my "eagerness" indeed I am very very eager (been waiting too long).
2. My income? hmm.. does this matter? lol.. well let's put it this way, if I have only this discretionary income to buy this ONE hdtv and WILL expect to use it for the next 2-3 years, should I be making sure I buy the "latest" model (ie. 1080p DLP in this case) to future-proof it?
3. I know 1080p is too early, but if I am gonna buy a set that will last 2-3 years at least, shouldn't be buying the latest and greatest just to make sure 1 year from now I won't be "stuck" with set that I will regret?
In an ideal world, the shop will let me upgrade and pay the difference, or I have enough expendable income to get a new 1080p set next year, but none of which could be happening, that's why I am in a bit of a conundrum right now.
Ratman
09-19-2005, 08:57 PM
Refer to post #9 and my last comment in the post above.
Just be aware... that nothing is 'future-proof'.
...a set that will last 2-3 years at least.Wow, I usually buy a TV hoping for 20 years. I had my last one for 19 years before selling it to someone else who's still using it...
I've had my "new" HDTV for 4 years already. The "sweet spot" is never the latest and greatest. I'd suggest a mid-priced unit for today, perhaps that you can move to a bedroom or sibling or parents in 3-5 years, when you can buy another?
vaxick
09-19-2005, 09:29 PM
I agree with Ratman on everything he has said. It's not always good to go out and buy the latest technology right when it comes out. Have you ever heard the stories that came out when HDTV's were just starting to get noticed? 720p/1080i TV's have most of the bugs worked out of them now and will still look gorgeous down the road.
Don't even begin to think about HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players right now. We don't even know which one will become the standard! Many people feel Toshiba should just give up on HD-DVD as it does not hold as much data as Blu-Ray, but Toshiba has much of the movie industry backing them up. Sony on the other hand is going to push Blu-Ray big time as it's their format and it holds a massive amount of data. This is just going to be another lame war like VHS and Beta Tapes. Who really knows which format is going to win in the end, but it's not worth thinking about buying a player for the formats at this point in time. Save some money, buy a dependable TV right now and spend the rest of your cash on something else you have been wanting.
Matt27
09-19-2005, 11:11 PM
Correction, Blu-ray has most of the movie companies support.IMO i think the tables have changed and Blu-ray is looking like VHS and HD-DVD like beta-max.
But yeah what ratman and Vaxick said, 1080p is'nt going to be a standard for quite a long time.Heck i know people that are just getting into HD with 1080i and 720p,never mind 1080p.It's just too new, and no material supporting it right now.It's kind of like D-VHS where that died off quickly.
terryfoster
09-20-2005, 08:44 AM
Think about the time it took (is taking) for the television industry to adopt 720p/1080i, I don't see them replacing all of their equipment in all of the affiliates to be able to support 1080p. Also, think about the current HDTV users that at best support 720p & 1080i, do you think anybody wants to alienate this current fan base?
Blu-ray is to be implemented on the PS3, advantage Sony.
gparris
09-20-2005, 02:00 PM
From my perspective, my neighbour just bought the Mits 1080p 62" set and loves it.
It is bright, clear and has great PQ and as far as saving up for one for the bigger discounts, he bought it from a big discount store for $800 off the list when he bought his washer and dryer there.
Sometimes you have to push the envelope a bit to haggle enough to get your price.
Recently, I got my client a JVC HD-ILA set for $500 off the list and free delivery.
Earlier this year, I had delivery of a Mits 73" CRT RPTV set for just over $3K including tax, delivery and a 3 year warranty.
If they really want to sell something to YOU for the price YOU want to pay for it, you get it.
Buying a smaller set at 720p and waiting for the big discount next year is absolutely your decision-maybe they do things differently in your area.
As far as waiting for the new high def players, my LG with HDMI input DVD player is excellent for upconverting as are many others.
Don't sell yourself short waiting for better and cheaper as you can get it today if you try (haggle) hard enough.
HDTVoicing
09-20-2005, 08:21 PM
Ditto on the point about bargaining. I almost bought a toshi 52HMX85/95 with stand for CAD$2700 (retail $3199) today, but all the local retailers do not have it in stock so I am safe, 'cause I just found out from here someone else in a different city got it for CAD$2079 at the same chain store!
The original poster has not stated what size of and what cost 720P
set he is considering. If it a big bucks all out huge set I would say NO
dont buy it because a 1080P set has twice the resolution and on a really
big set with the best signals that will be easily visible and these best signals
are not that far off...That said you know that 1080P is going to cost considerably
more so I guess what you are asking is the difference going to be visible or not?
It will but only if you are close enough/set it large enough. Remember that as
the viewing angle gets smaller and smaller its harder and harder to see the improvements in resolution and vice versa...
HDTVoicing
09-21-2005, 01:33 AM
Don't sell yourself short waiting for better and cheaper as you can get it today if you try (haggle) hard enough.
I agree with this, so 1080p here I come! :hyper:
But there is none available in Canada yet. :boo2: we are always late getting new stuff here compared to States... sigh.
wizzyman
09-21-2005, 01:40 AM
I would suggest to anyone who is considering buying an HDTV set for the first time - whether it's 720p, 1080i, or 1080p - to first find out what kind of source they will be using. Over-the-air signals are available in limited areas, cable companies are upgrading and VERY slowly at that, and satellite stations are also numbered.
Where I live, we have only 10 HD channels via cable, and all are at 1080i. If it has taken my cable company this long to get HD, I can only imagine how long it would take for them to upgrade to 1080p. Even if we have 1080p sets available this winter - will we have any sources?
This is a moot point, of course, if all you are planning on doing is watching 1080p DVD (whenever they become available). But I remember back when 5.1 suround sound first came out, it took DVDs something like 4-5 years before that became standard on DVDs. How long will it take before studios release movies in 1080p?
Also, I wouldn't base a purchase on what the thing might cost in a few months. If I did, I'd've never bought my laptop, PDA, or even car. There are always new models coming out, and the old ones always get cheaper. That's just the natural way of life.
Anyway, just my two cents... :)
HDTVoicing
09-21-2005, 02:54 AM
wizzyman, thanks for the analysis. I think my final purchasing decision comes down this:
If there is a side-by-side comparison between a 720p and 1080p set when fed with the same source (1080i, 720p, or upconverted 480i DVD), and the 1080p set is observed to display "better" (maybe in terms of sharpness, brightness, contrast etc etc) picture, there's no reason (for me personally) to stay with the 720p.
Therefore, source doesn't really matter in this case, because I'll know that whatever source that I feed into 1080p it WILL be better than the 720p TV.
However, if negligible improvement or worse PQ is observed on the 1080p sets when fed these 1080i OTA/720p cable/480i upconvert DVD/VCR whatever, then I will save tons of money by going with a 720p set!
I will be so excited about my first HDTV! In fact I have been ordering too many DVDs from Amazon lately just to be ready for this first HDTV experience :hyper:
wizzyman, thanks for the analysis. I think my final purchasing decision comes down this:
If there is a side-by-side comparison between a 720p and 1080p set when fed with the same source (1080i, 720p, or upconverted 480i DVD), and the 1080p set is observed to display "better" (maybe in terms of sharpness, brightness, contrast etc etc) picture, there's no reason (for me personally) to stay with the 720p.
Therefore, source doesn't really matter in this case, because I'll know that whatever source that I feed into 1080p it WILL be better than the 720p TV.
However, if negligible improvement or worse PQ is observed on the 1080p sets when fed these 1080i OTA/720p cable/480i upconvert DVD/VCR whatever, then I will save tons of money by going with a 720p set!
I will be so excited about my first HDTV! In fact I have been ordering too many DVDs from Amazon lately just to be ready for this first HDTV experience :hyper:
I think you are using your wallet instead of your brain to think. 1080P display
is VISIBLY HIGHER RESOLUTION than 720P . Of course its
going to look sharper with a decent 1080i signal. I think you are kidding yourself if you think 1080P display is just hype and wont really look better than 720P. This is the worlds most common audio video purchase delusion. That being that "the better stuff isnt really better, so second best is really just as good and since its cheaper its a better value". I am not saying
720P isnt a better value due to the current pricing gaps, but its not
going to be as good as 1080P display with good 1080P/i signals. Thats the false part.....
gparris
09-21-2005, 02:26 PM
Good luck to you, HDTVoicing!
HDTVoicing
09-21-2005, 04:56 PM
thanks gparris but internally I am still as confused as ever, despite my proclaimations of going for 1080p set :)
I guess I will let my "eyes" judge the purchasing decision when there're real 1080p HDTVs in store I can actually "see" for myself.
HDTVoicing
09-21-2005, 07:26 PM
I think you are kidding yourself if you think 1080P display is just hype and wont really look better than 720P. This is the worlds most common audio video purchase delusion. That being that "the better stuff isnt really better, so second best is really just as good and since its cheaper its a better value".
I like this, let's call it the :hah33: "Audio Video SB (second-best) Delusional Syndrome" :)
thanks gparris but internally I am still as confused as ever, despite my proclaimations of going for 1080p set :)
I guess I will let my "eyes" judge the purchasing decision when there're real 1080p HDTVs in store I can actually "see" for myself.
good idea but dont get tricked because 1080P fixed pixel display
is going to be at such a high level of resolution that it going to
be difficult to fully exploit. In other words you will need to see a really
good signal to compare and that may or may not be available in the store to tell
the full difference from a 720P display. With average or mediocre
signals you wont see any difference but thats the signal's fault
not the displays...
jco
