View Full Version : Cablevision Firewire Information...
I am a Cablevision customer and just got the SA4200HD box. I hooked up my firewire connection to my computer and got the Panasonic DVHS drivers all setup... I then see that all the HD channels come in all blocky and not-watchable. The audio comes in really choppy also. The only channels that come in completely clear are basic cable channels.....
I don't understand how they can do this when the FCC mandates that all channels be "copy-once" unless it's PPV or VOD (Demand)..
I tried calling and asking but all I go is that the networks themselves do not allow HDTV to be recorded via firewire (which I think is bull****).
I see that comcast is very leniant when dealing with firewire and 5C encryption.. and I don't know why cablevision is being such ****s about it. I guess where comcast lacks it in internet they make up for it with good customer service and not encrypting **** I pay for.
I pay for all these channels and would just like to make my PC into a DVR instead of paying for one from Cablevision. I know i'm entitled to it, what should I do!
At this time, you can use firewire to copy any programmes that you receive. The information in your third paragraph about not being able to record is incorrect.
I believe your problems are related to low signal strength. Please see the HDTV FAQ "Tips for SA STBs". I'm not sure if Cablevision uses SARA or Passport firmware, but if the former is used, you can measure your signal strength, which I believe is your problem.
If you have any splitters upstream of the STB remove them and you should get the HD channels loud and clear once you have a good signal. Call Cablevision again and ask them to test your signal strength if you cannot.
I also find that polite conversation with a CSR yeilds more results than profanity.
Theres a thread on AVSForum with about 5 others who use Cablevision having the same problem, so I really don't think it's signal strength.
Like I said, basic cable channels (2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, etc) all come in fine via firewire, perfect sound & video.
When i try any other CABLE channel (ones i PAY for) I don't get anything at all.
When I try any HDTV channel (whether it be the basic networks or premium HD I pay for) I get half-HDTV half-green pixelated dots.
I do believe I'm entitled to Copy-Once on anything I pay for but VOD and PPV products... Even if I'm not entitled to premium channels, I should still be entitled to receive anything I could receivie freely over the air. I really wish someone could tell me the exact rights I have as a consumer when it comes to cable-tv and things I pay for.
I'll give a quck run down once more:
Starz-HD : comes in fine
Basic Cable HD (Channels avalible OTA) : All pixelated with green blotches, not watchable.
Premium-HD (Channels I pay for) : Nothing at all.
Basic Cable (Channels avalible OTA) : Watchable
Anything that's not "basic cable" doesn't even come through the firewire.
I want to email Cablevision but I'd like to know what exactly I should say to fix the problem me and others are having.
If you disconnect the firewire, are the channels you're trying to record clear and viewable, or are they still pixellated? If they are clear for viewing, but not clear for copying, then yes there may be an issue with 5C copy protection.
If they are not clear for straight viewing, then you likely have a signal strength problem.
See the HDTV FAQ on "recording HD". Perhaps cablevision have the incorrect "switch" on their firewire outputs which don't allow copying. This "switch" needs to be changed, since you should be able to copy.
Perhaps that's clearer?
The HDTV stuff works fine on my TV.. it's just on the PC when I'm using the firewire to try and get stuff onto my PC DVR HD. (200GIG Seagate).
Like I said If i'm supposed to be able to copy these kinds of programs I'd like some references and maybe some key phrases I should bring up to Cablevision when I call them.
You'll need to find a knowledgeable technician (ask for second level). They may have the "5C" copy flag set to "1" instead of "0". The 1 setting prevents copying.
Perhaps someone else with more experience than I can assist further. Good Luck.
Appreciate the assistance 57U. I'm on the phone right now seeing is the C5 flag is set.
Ratman
10-07-2005, 11:29 AM
Isn't it "5C"?
Thought it was 5C.. Anyone have any ideas on this? and Does a cable company have to change it so I can receive programming via IEEE1394
There have been instances where Shaw Cable in Western Canada inadvertently changed the flag to 1 instead of 0 with a firmware update on the Motorola STBs. When contacted about the situation, they changed it back immediately and everyone could copy again...
I have not heard of such problems with the SA STBs in the US, but I hope this information is useful, nevertheless.
Well got some good news I guess. I was told they'd check on it with the engineers. Will update on what happens.
I installed the http://stolemy.name/blog/files/xp1394fix.rar and alot of the HD channels got better. HBO-HD and STARZ-HD come in pretty darn clear. Here's a sample of HBO-HD via Firewire HERE (http://stolemy.name/blog/images/hbo-hd.png) . Basic HD Channels still come in really bad. Here's a sample of NBC-HD via Firewire HERE (http://stolemy.name/blog/images/nbc-hd.png) . Still awaiting a call from Cablevision about what the problem is.
kidslice
10-25-2005, 11:38 PM
At this time, you can use firewire to copy any programmes that you receive. The information in your third paragraph about not being able to record is incorrect.
Where do you come by this??? The DTLA and the FCC both allow premium (i.e. VOD and PPV) content to be flagged as Copy Never. Copy Never means you cannot record it, you can watch it, but you cannot record it.
kidslice
10-25-2005, 11:46 PM
There are 4 flags, Copy Free, Copy Once, No More Copies and Copy Never. The last 2 do not allow a user to make any copies at all (i.e. cannot record). Copy Once, No More Copies and Copy Never require that the receiving device support DTCP (i.e. 5C), no DTCP support, then no way to decrypt the content, thus there is no way to record it (in reality you can record the packets, but you cannot play them back since you cannot decrypt them).
A PC does not support DTCP, a TV almost always does. So content you can view on a TV may be encrypted using Copy Once, No More Copies or Copy Never, but you are watching not copying, so the TV can decrypt and display the content. So as far as the end user can tell with a TV, the content is not protected. You can only tell when you try to record.
Where do you come by this??? I guess you missed this decision. The decision will be appealed, however, for now, there are no flags in place anywhere in North America. So at this point all 5C settings are at zero. I also believe there are only 3 flags - settings 0, 1 & 2.
http://news.com.com/Court+yanks+down+FCCs+broadcast+flag/2100-1030_3-5697719.html?tag=nefd.lede
JohnnyG
10-26-2005, 12:09 PM
57U, I believe you're mixing up 5C flags with the "broadcast flag". They are 2 different things. And yes, it's confusing as heck!
bx_, if your 4200HD's 1394 outputs were 5C flagged, then you would probably see nothing at all. If 5C on one side doesn't see 5C on the other side, then the link can't be encyrpted and the interface *should* be disabled as a result. But if left to operate, then you'd see no difference. The 5C flags would still be in the stream, but the "sink" end would just ignore them.
57U, I believe you're mixing up 5C flags with the "broadcast flag".
Perhaps I am, but it looks to me as though they accomplish the same thing - ie, don't interfere with viewing of DTV programmes, however "preclude" improper "copying/distribution" downstream of the equipment (STB).
I read a fair bit of the decision, link below:
http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/docs/common/opinions/200505/04-1037b.pdf
puck71
10-26-2005, 01:39 PM
I guess you missed this decision. The decision will be appealed, however, for now, there are no flags in place anywhere in North America. So at this point all 5C settings are at zero. I also believe there are only 3 flags - settings 0, 1 & 2. All my digital channels are set at 5C=1, except for I think PBSHD, ESPNHD, and TNTHD. (My cable company doesn't have any other digital locals yet) and I've read that most cable operators (Comcast, Time Warner, etc.) are set up similarly right now.
As far as I know, all the decisions and regulations apply only to broadcast material, not cable, since the FCC has no authority over cable. So is there any way we can stop them from flagging digital cable as 5C=1?? Most of the stuff I've wanted to record have been on analog cable so far, but there have been a couple on digital-only that are flagged for no apparrent reason. They're not a premium or PPV channel ... they're just digital cable. I haven't contacted the cable company yet...maybe I'll have the same success you had!
I thought it was a requirement that people in the US would be able to record via firewire from their Cable STBs. Each service provider must have at least one STB capable of this type of connection and you should (at least) be able to record OTA-type stations. This may simply be a mistake by the cable company...
Although I could see that the premium channels are set to 5C=1 on an HD-DVR, because that would fall in line with the HDTV FAQ "Recording HD".
puck71
10-26-2005, 03:16 PM
Each service provider must have at least one STB capable of this type of connection and you should (at least) be able to record OTA-type stations. All of the OTA stations are fine, but that's a small fraction of the channels available on cable. It would be nice to have some regulation in place for cable channels, not just broadcast. Right now it seems to be that cable operators can set whatever flags they want on whichever channels they want, except for OTA channels which have to be 5C=0. The channels don't even seem to be in control of what is set for their channels!
JohnnyG
10-27-2005, 12:10 PM
Perhaps I am...
5C is method for encrypting content over a physical link. Initially, this was specifically 1394, but the standard was expanded to ethernet and, I believe, WiFi (not sure about that, though).
The Broadcast Flag was more a concept than an actual technology. At the end, I think it was 5 or 6 different systems that were approved by the FCC (which dealt with how to handle the flag after 'seeing' it). The job of this flag was not to prevent or inhibit recording, but to prevent or inhibit re-transmission of that recording over other than approved channels.
So, they are similar, but different in intent and purpose.
JohnnyG
10-27-2005, 12:21 PM
I thought it was a requirement that people in the US would be able to record via firewire from their Cable STBs. Each service provider must have at least one STB capable of this type of connection and you should (at least) be able to record OTA-type stations. This may simply be a mistake by the cable company...
That's sounds pretty close to the way I remember it, too. It was deal struck between the CEA and the NCTA. If you find the time, Google those acronyms with "FCC" and "agreement" and I'm sure the appropriate document will present itselft.
JohnnyG
10-27-2005, 12:27 PM
From this (http://www.ncta.com/press/press.cfm?PRid=325&showArticles=ok) press release:
The parties also said their agreement will encourage the development and distribution of high quality digital content. A key element of the agreement relates to secure digital interfaces that protect consumers' home recording rights along with copyright owners' rights to secure their digital content. Major cable system operators have agreed to support recordable IEEE 1394 connections on high-definition set-top boxes.
puck71
10-27-2005, 12:48 PM
Grr, I got a reply from my cable company and they say they don't "support" the firewire output (even though it's enabled in the version of the firmware they're using), and they also say they can't change the copyright protection (5C) on the channels.
I can accept the first part, in that they offer it but don't officially offer support for it, but isn't the second part just a lie? 57U you mentioned that your cable company was easily able to switch off the 5C, and I've heard reports of different cable companies having different 5C settings on various channels (some have ESPNHD on 5C=0, others have 5C=1, for one example) which implies that the cable company is able to set their own flags.
So rather than just replying back and saying they're not telling me the truth, does anyone know any specifics on what exactly they need to change to turn off 5C? The e-mail said he got that info from a tech who deals with the boxes, so it seems like he should know. The e-mail definitely said they "can't" change the 5C, but maybe they just mean they "won't" ...
JohnnyG
10-27-2005, 12:52 PM
Based on the info you've provided, I really don't think you have a 5C problem here. You had this problem with all channels, then a software patch for 1394 helped with some channels. This seems to point the finger at your PC rather than your cable box. Perhaps you could try another 1394 adapter? Or another cable?
puck71
10-27-2005, 01:08 PM
Based on the info you've provided, I really don't think you have a 5C problem here. You had this problem with all channels, then a software patch for 1394 helped with some channels. This seems to point the finger at your PC rather than your cable box. Perhaps you could try another 1394 adapter? Or another cable? What is happening is the firewire capture is working and has always worked for certain channels, and does not work and has never worked for certain other channels (digital cable). I never patched or changed anything, and I don't think there has been a firmware update since I've started using the firewire. So I don't know (like 57U did) whether or not it worked before one of the recent firmware updates...all I know is it doesn't work now.
It definitely is a 5C issue, since I've gone into the config menus and checked the channel status on some of the channels that won't record, and it says 5C=1, and on the couple digital channels that DO record it's 5C=0. I haven't taken the time to test ALL my channels, but that's what I observed for the ones I did test.
57U you mentioned that your cable company was easily able to switch off the 5C.
To clarify, I stated that Shaw (western Canada) was able to turn 5C from "1" to "0". It almost seems as though "1" may be the "default"?
Rogers (Ontario) (my service provider), unfortunately for many people, have not activated firewire on any of their SA STBs since there is no such requirement in Canada.
In the US there is a requirement for firewire on at least one cable box, but as you have noticed, they can make it "active" for the "OTA-type" stations only. This came into place in April 2004. See the following thread.
http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showthread.php?t=19243&highlight=april+firewire
JG, thanks for the clarifications.
puck71
10-27-2005, 01:40 PM
What's funny is that now I remember that my e-mail specifically asked them why the channels were set as 5C=1 in the first place, and they didn't answer that and just said they couldn't change it. And by "switch off" I did just mean to change from 5C=1 to 5C=0. Do you know any keywords I should use if I reply back that will let them know that it definitely can be changed?
I realize it's not a requirement for them to set 5C=0 on any channels except OTA's, but it would seem to me that they would at least have some reason to have 5C=1, other than some lame (false) excuse that they can't change it.
I don't think there are any "keywords" other than to discuss the 5C settings themselves, asking that the e-mail is forwarded to an engineer who understands what you're talking about.
Obviously the settings CAN be changed and you may simply wish to ask them to change them to "0" or to have them explain why some channels are at "1", which causes you problems.
JohnnyG
10-28-2005, 11:14 AM
I never patched or changed anything...
Sorry...was mixing you up with bx_.
It definitely is a 5C issue, since I've gone into the config menus and checked the channel status on some of the channels that won't record, and it says 5C=1, and on the couple digital channels that DO record it's 5C=0.
Interesting. I wonder if your local affiliates have turned on the broadcast flag, which is being passed through the cable system, and then your set-top is translating this into a 5C "command"? There may not be anything your cable company can do here. You might try contacting the engineering department of the affected network affiliates.
Just to back up what I'm saying, CityTV here in Toronto threw a few set-top boxes for a loop after they started using the broadcast flag (apparently by accident). After a few months, the 'mistake' was corrected by City, but this was also fixed in firmware by Samsung and DigitalStream (two brands that I know were affected).
puck71
11-10-2005, 01:41 PM
I'm resurrecting this thread again. My cable company is kind of claiming that the 5C setting on certain channels is due to the DVR itself, and that setting is locked. I was under the impression that the 5C flag is set in the cable channels configuration on their end and is sent over the cable to my house, and the DVR just interprets that flag. Is it possible that the DVR itself can set this 5C flag if a channel meets certain criteria?
Thanks!
JohnnyG
11-11-2005, 01:42 PM
I'm really not sure what they're trying to say here. Sure, it's the DVR setting the 5C flag on it's Firewire output, but that's based on data in the program stream itself.
JG, I'm not sure if that "flag" is in the programme streams yet. For example, it appears that in the US some channels cannot be recorded to PC, while in Canada (Shaw in Western Canada) people can record all the channels. The people in the Shaw area even called Shaw and Shaw changed the setting (after all the channels were switched to "1")
It almost appears as if the cable company itself (currently) sets the "5C" setting to zero or 1, rather than the programme (at this time), otherwise, why would people with Shaw be able to record all channels?
Now, it is possible that the premium channels in the US DO send a signal, but then shouldn't the OTA-type channels also be sending a "zero" signal. If they were, then the Shaw people would always be able to record the OTA-type channels, which they were not able to do after a firmware upgrade and until Shaw changed the settings...
puck71
11-11-2005, 03:08 PM
I'm pretty much out of patience with my cable company. Their lack of a clear answer is pretty much as clear an answer as they can give. I'll let you read between the lines there, but I'd say there's an edict from somewhere higher up to set copy protection a certain way. They're hiding behind the whole copyright infringement angle, but as much as certain lobbyists might like them to believe otherwise, it's not an infringement of anything to transfer any recordings to PC, DVD, etc.
JohnnyG
11-14-2005, 12:32 PM
JG, I'm not sure if that "flag" is in the programme streams yet.
Well sure it is. The question is, who's inserting it, and where?
puck71
11-14-2005, 01:58 PM
After I posted my last message, someone from the cable company actually called me to get more information on the issue. It doesn't seem like they really know anything about firewire or 5C, so if I talk to the right person I think I might be able to get it cleared. After all, how is it really different to output to a PC than outputting to a DVD Recorder?? It's a pretty small step to go from DVD to PC.
DVD recorder inputs are 480i only. PCs can grab the HD stream. They are vastly different concerns for the content providers and that's the whole issue.
puck71
11-14-2005, 03:35 PM
DVD recorder inputs are 480i only. PCs can grab the HD stream. They are vastly different concerns for the content providers and that's the whole issue. The channels I'm asking about aren't HD channels. At a minimum I'm asking them to "unlock" all SD non-premium channels. Ideally I'd like them to unlock ALL channels, perhaps except pay-per-view.
From a logical standpoint, why is it a "vastly different concern" for providers whether I record (for an example) ESPN in SD or HD? It's the same content, just in higher resolution. I would think the distinction would be more about the type of content (premium, PPV, etc.) than the resolution of the content...but then again I'm trying to apply logic to a situation that's overall illogical. After all, what are they going to do a few years down the line when HD DVD Recorders are in the mainstream? Presumably you'll be able to hook Component or (at worst) HDMI to it. We're a ways from that, but I just don't really understand the argument of "increased resolution = increased restrictions"
Back more to the original topic, when on the phone with the cable guy, he gave some interesting information about the firmware upgrades they put out. Basically he said that some techs from Motorola come to the office and install the firmware and then take off, so nobody at the cable company really knows what they did, or what changes the upgrade might have made. I'm assuming there are some people in the company who know the details, but they're probably at the national office, and we're just at an affiliate whose box is "slave" to the national box.
1. If you only want SD, hook up an s-video cable and you can record from there without any problem.
2. HDMI, DVI and Component Video cannot/will not be used for inputs for HD recorders of any kind. There are no, and will not be, any consumer recorders with those inputs. That's what firewire is for. (HDMI, DVI, Component video are "display" connectors)
Any recorders (there are a select few) with component video inputs are limited to 480i.
See the HDTV FAQ on "Recording HD".
The content protection of HD programming is a concern because the content providers do not wish certain content easily downloadable and distributed on the web since it's digital and could be distributed without loss of signal quality. HD is a different animal and that's why these "flags" are in place.
puck71
11-14-2005, 06:25 PM
1. If you only want SD, hook up an s-video cable and you can record from there without any problem. It's a lot more of a pain (for me) to hook up s-video to my PC rather than firewire. I'm working on getting it to work, but I'm having trouble finding the best program to capture, etc.
2. HDMI, DVI and Component Video cannot/will not be used for inputs for HD recorders of any kind. There are no, and will not be, any consumer recorders with those inputs. That's what firewire is for. (HDMI, DVI, Component video are "display" connectors) Why "can't" they? Has this been documented anywhere? You could make the same argument for composite and s-video being "display" connectors, yet pretty much all DVD recorders, VCR's, etc. have those as inputs.
The content protection of HD programming is a concern because the content providers do not wish certain content easily downloadable and distributed on the web since it's digital and could be distributed without loss of signal quality. HD is a different animal and that's why these "flags" are in place. Why is it a different animal? Just because it has more lines of resolution? DVDs are a digital copy and can be distributed without loss of signal quality. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter if it's "easy" to capture HD material - all it takes is one person!
This is all philosophical and rhetorical, since I know all my questions will be answered by money and not logic anyway, but for right now all I really want is for my cable company to unlock all SD channels over firewire, so I can use firewire in the same way I can already use s-video. It doesn't really sound like they know how to do that. Does anyone know HOW the cable company can change the 5C flag in their program streams??
I didn't say they "can't" (HDMI et al). I said they will not. The manufacturers of recording equipment do not want the MPAA et al coming down on them with lawsuits, etc. You WILL NOT see those connections on consumer equipment.
Also, it's not actually legal to copy and distribute copyrighted DVDs. Although it's legal to make a copy for your personal use (and even there much of the software is "illegal" because it circumvents macrovision).
Copyright law is fairly simple when it comes to video and audio. 99% of the copyright law is as follows:
1. You can make a copy of an original.
2. You cannot make a copy of a copy (unless the item is not copyrighted).
3. You cannot sell a copy.
The "one person" you're talking about will be doing it illegally if he violates the above and he will be prosecuted. We do not discuss illegal activity on this forum.
Edit, remember also that HDMI/DVI/CV are uncompressed streams and are typically over 1 Gb/sec for HD material. To record this you'd either need a HDD the size of New York, or an encoder. Firewire for HD is typically less than 19.4 Mb/sec (a compression factor of more than 50).
puck71
11-14-2005, 07:14 PM
I realize all that, I just hope there will be an easy way to record HD programming for personal use when the HD-DVD format war settles itself and equipment starts coming out. Personally I think there will be consumer equipment with HD inputs, at least eventually. Firewire may fill that need, we'll have to see.
