DVI or IEEE...should I wait or not???!!!!

[Dave Marx]

I am in the market for a new HDTV, and this whole issue of DVI vs. Firewire has set my search back. Even the guys in the home theatre specialty store don't seem to know which will become the industry standard. I was especially interested in the Mitsubishi 65-inch HDTV...liked it a lot...but it has firewire and no DVI. What if DVI becomes the standard???? Then I'm up s**t creek...

I don't see how anyone can confidently purchase an HDTV now, without knowing which will become the standard. It would have been like buying a Beta VCR vs. VHS, years ago.

ANYONE have ANY idea or heard ANYTHING about which one will be the favored choice in the future????????????????????????

[mikehbkwm]

well in my opinion it really wont matter... thats way down the road from what ive read and also i think that most components in the future will have an option for both DVI and firewire so id say go ahead and get a HD set you really dont have anything to worry about.. Ive got a Sony KP51ws500 and it has DVI and I feel totally comfortable knowing that it doesnt have firewire...

[Dave Marx]

I don't think the Mitsu set I looked at can be upgraded for DVI. I think I may wait for sets that have BOTH inputs in the future, so I can get my bases covered. I think this may be a crucial issue in the future, so I am gonna probably wait, unless someone has information that leads me to believe one of the two standards will become dominant.

[57U]

There appears to be a "deal" in the works whereby DVI will become the standard for digital TV inputs, while Firewire will be the standard for recording devices. This leaves Mits a little "on the outside" of this battle.

There have been several recent announcements regarding this issue, however nothing is cast in stone yet.

This does mean that if you are considering a TV with DVI, you probably have nothing to worry about, while if the set you're considering only has firewire, you may wish to be aware of these recent developments.

There are many of us who don't have either, but in the same way that you were taking a "small risk" many months ago if your set only had component video inputs, you are now taking a "small risk" if your set has firewire, instead of DVI.

[Dave Marx]

What do you guys think of this development...reported in another forum. Seems Firewire may have won??

Check out this link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203016

[57U]

Read paragraph 11 in --> This Announcement (http://www.ce.org/press_room/press_release_detail.asp?id=10128) and everything will be clear as mud again...

It reads that firewire is for recording from STBs, while DVI will be the interface for HDTV. We'll have to see how all this shakes out...

There was a very recent announcement from Rogers Cable in Toronto, that they will "enable" the DVI ports on future HD STBs and not enable firewire. It's very early in this game but that news was disconcerting to some, because if Rogers actually does this, there will be no way to record HD signals from STBs because all recorders so far use firewire. Also TVs with firewire inputs only would have to use the component video (analogue) inputs instead of digital (DVI). Not a big deal...

Rogers may have spoken incorrectly, but we'll wait and see... Rogers may plan to have people use an HDPVR STB, like the SA8000HD which will allow you to record, without the need for firewire since "everything" is in the one STB.

Who knows, if enough people have a need for firewire, Rogers may decide to "enable" the firewire port, but at this time they say no.

Remember that all of these decisions have been made without the input of the MPAA.

[pcoffman]

I may be mistaken but I think Mitsubishi would probably come out with some way to upgrade the sets people currently own don't you think? I just figured since they have the promise module for those who don't have a built in tuner and for those of us who do any technical upgrades that they have made they just send you an upgrade card and boom fixed. Of course I know you can't do that with DVI since it is an input but couldn't they come up with a different module that you could add possably? Just a thought.

[Dave Marx]

I don't know if the Mitsu set is upgradable to DVI, but that's a good question. I guess all you would need is ONE DVI input, and then you could hub several more inputs on there, like USB, right? In any case, a smart buy would be to get sets with both, I am guessing.

And then there's the whole copy protection issue, to boot.! Man, seems like shopping for a big-screen TV for the future is a heck of a lot more complicated than it used to be!!!!!!!!!

[MassCableGuy]

While researching a HDTV to purchase I came across a straight forward answer by Samsung that states the main reason they don't have a IEEE input on their HDTV sets.

The question was:

Does the Samsung DLP™ TV product line feature the 1394 interface?

No. While there are several reasons, the most common and practical reasons include price considerations and the delivery choices of digital and HDTV programming. The important thing to know is that a 1394 equipped TV product would require a MPEG-2 decoder, something that adds considerable cost to a TV set. Note also that the cost of designing a HDTV tuner in most any TV set would add approximately $500 at retail of which most of the cost is the decoder itself. Since there are several delivery options for accessing HDTV programming like cable, satellite and over the air HDTV broadcasts, add-on tuners and receivers are a more practical way to go for most consumers. With this in mind, the product features the high quality DVI interface for true digital connectivity. Most all of the new generation off-air HDTV/Cable TV tuners and Satellite HD receivers are or will be DVI equipped.

[MassCableGuy]

Almost forgot...heres the link to the page were the Q/A was found...

http://www.samsungusa.com/cgi-bin/nabc/support/faq/b2c_faq_detail.jsp?eUser=&faqOid=191237&currentCategoryPath=%2fAudio+and+Video%2fTV&f_select=40in.+to+65in.+Plasma+TV

I can definately relate to the pressures of buying a quality TV not knowing what the future holds for it. All I can do is feel confident in the set I purchased...and so far so good!!! (Samsung HLM437W)

[Dave Marx]

Mass Cable Guy, thanks for that informative post. But it worries me. Does that mean the Mitsu 65-inch set I was looking at getting is going to be outdated in a couple of years, since it only has Firewire? YIKES!!!!!!!!! This is not good news. Anyway, I am mainly waiting for the satellite services to add many more HD-channels before I invest in an HDTV. Doesn't make sense to spend all that cash and then watch 98% of shows in 4:3, does it?

Why is DIRECTV and DISH NETWORK taking so long to add new HD channels? I mean, there are just a handful of HD channels right now...shameful! I do hear ESPN and ESPN2 will be HD on DISH NETWORK later this year.

[MassCableGuy]

No problem Dave. I work for ATT Broadband (now Comcast) and I get the opportunity to view many HD sets in the average folks home (out of sight from pesky sales people), which gives me a slight edge when it came to picking one out for myself.

As far as the Mitsubishi becoming outdated...well, HDTV's are similar to computers whereas the lastest and greatest surpasses the 'then' latest and greatest of just a few weeks ago. I'll tell you what I told my best friend, (who incidently took 4 MONTHS to decide which set to buy) get the TV that best impresses YOU, not the salesman or 'us'. For instance, Comcast has a standing order when it comes to adjusting the color/tint/contrast ect on customers TV's ... DONT. What looks good to us doesn't always look good to them.

The firewire is a good set-up, but I feel that it has too many limitations on it as a direct connection for video/audio feed which requires additional steps in presenting the image. Thats just my personal opinion. Do your research from non-biased sources and then dive in.

Hell NTSC format has been around since the dawn of TV broadcast, the FCC isn't going to change or 'update' the HDTV format anytime soon. Firewire/DVI/Component ect are just fluff at different ways of doing the same thing, some are better than others but you have to realize that a 1080i image is the same regardless of how it gets there...component/Firewire/DVI. Thats the beauty of high definition.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I love this stuff!!! You just have to dive in and enjoy Dave, otherwise your going to be second guessing yourself till your too old to enjoy it when you do finally get one. :D

[MassCableGuy]

Opps! :rolleyes: I got so carried away with myself that I forgot to address your concern about DirectTV & Dish not showing more HD channels.

Simply. It comes down to bandwidth. And whats most cost effective - currently.

For instance, in cable, a standard analog NTSC channel is 6 Mhz wide. so needless to say in a 900+ Mhz pipeline that don't give you to many 'channels' to play with when you consider High Speed Data/VOD VoIP and such taking up more space. So, like DirecTV & Dish, cable went digital in the transmission of channels. Now we can have nearly 6 to 10 high quaility analog channels in the same 6 Mhz bandwidth. However a 'true' HD channel takes much more bandwidth, nearly as much as a standard NTSC does in bandwidth. To the 'bean-counters' its like going 'back in time'. And they don't want to do that YET. :p Its all about demand!! And the sad truth is, not many customers demand it... Those &*($#!!!:mad:

Just my two...ahem...five cents worth...

[Dave Marx]

Thanks again, MCG, very interesting stuff. As for me, I really like the Mitsu 65-inch (think it's the 989 model). However, it only has Firewire, not DVI. I think I will probably wait a few months to see what shakes out, as far as which tv has which format. I see you have the Samsung...do you enjoy it? I had also been looking at Samsung and SONY (though I didn't like SONY's stretch modes in 4:3, where they merely zoom in on the picture instead of elongating the far side of the picture). Seems ya lose a lot of the picture with the SONY.

As far as the lack of demand on HD on Satellite, I think that once more consumers get a look at what the HD picture quality looks like, the demand will certainly increase. The thought of most channels becoming HD just makes my mouth water. The idea of ESPN in HD is fantastic! Imagine the detail during games!!!

Anyway, keep up the good work. Thanks again for the info...

[coolmacguy]

"Firewire/DVI/Component ect are just fluff at different ways of doing the same thing"

Not exactly. Component is still analog, while Firewire and DVI are completely digital. Now granted you aren't going to see that much dif but it is still there.

[MassCableGuy]

:rolleyes: True.

However the basis of my post was that there is always going to be something newer/better 6 months from now. Is there a HUGE difference? It depends on the individual. :D

[Eyedox]

Mitsubishi has stated that although they have no plans to add DVI-HDCP interfaces on their HDTV's in the near future, they have promised that if DVI becomes the SOLE standard for hooking up protected HD content, their promise modules can be altered to incorporate a DVI interface in addition to the Firewire ones.

[hdexpert]

if this really concerns you go mits, they already have the firewire and they have already announced that if (when) dvi becomes more popular they will release an upgrade for their rptvs...so they are the only way you are going to get the best of both worlds

[Mize]

Does anyone have any thoughts on HDMI or seen any new equipment coming out with an HDMI connection?

I have been reading about it as the next(backwards compatible) version of DVI. HDMI allows for an uncompressed video AND audio signal and I have been starting to hear some buzz about it. I heard there should be hdtv's on the market first quarter 2003 with HDMI connectors but have not seen or heard of any.

[MassCableGuy]

The only HDTV's that I know of (mainly because I have one :D ) that has the new version of DVI - HDMI is the Samsung DLP sets. Attached is a photo of a paragraph in the brochure from Samsung telling about the DVI interface.

I may be the only interface that the MPAA will allow HD copyrighted video thru.

You can see the entire product brochure at this link:

http://www.samsungusa.com/pdf/hlm437w.pdf

[Mize]

Thanks for the info. I looked at the brochure and that is a really nice set. I am going to go check one out at Tweeter this weekend. For some reason, I was thinking that dlp was way out of my price range but it's actually pretty close with this set.

Do you know of any kind of information out there regarding reliability/build quality? I have never owned a Samsung product and I am not finding much information.

Thanks again.

[MassCableGuy]

Well, I have to be honest, I've never owned a Samsung before this set. Most of my previous sets were Philips or Sony. I went out on a limb with the Samsung. I've read many posts about the set here and on AV forum. There are many excellent raving reports about it as well as some horror stories as well. (Which, quite frankly, I notice is the case with EVERY set they talk about always some good and some bad) However, I've had this set for quite some time and I absolutely LOVE IT! There is always an opinion about DLP vs LCD and such. But you have to view them in person and make your own decision. I personally feel the DLP has a better contrast ration and is a much more reliable technology. You can read more about DLP at www.dlp.com

I actually bought mine from Tweeter, and they have an awesome return policy. 30-day money back and a 60-day replacement. So you really can't lose by giving it a shot. I personally am very happy with my decision!

As for the HDMI situation, go to this website: www.hdmi.org and it will tell you all about the HDMI standard as well as information about current DVI products (Like the Samsung) that are compatible with the future HDMI standard. Its very interesting reading!

Any questions you have, just shoot! :p

[miahallen]

It bugs me when people walk into retail stores thinking the salespeople only want to get into their wallets. 90% of the time you are correct, but instead of shopping for products, and dealing with the "pesky" salespeople. Try shopping for a good salesperson first, then listening to what he has to say about the products. I was a salesperson with Good Guys (west coast chain, 70+ stores). But I quit six months ago because I got tired of dealing with people like you. I was HONEST, FRIENDLY, and KNOWLEDGABLE. And honestly, I didn't do it for the commission, it wasn't that good!

[miahallen]

nothing personal

[MassCableGuy]

Originally posted by MassCableGuy
I've read many posts about the set here and on AV forum. There are many excellent raving reports about it as well as some horror stories as well. (Which, quite frankly, I notice is the case with EVERY set they talk about always some good and some bad)

I re-read my post, and I'm at a loss to where I was dogging a sales-professional. If you were referring to the above statement, I was talking about THESE POSTS, not sales personnel.

I would like to know, just for my own benefit, where I stated such a thing. Because that would NEVER be my intent. I feel that a HONEST upfront sales-professional is the best asset a buyer has, since they know how many of a particular set has been returned and why it had been returned...

[kidslice]

blah blah blah...

what were we talking about.. oh yeah 1394...

Well your wait is over. According to the FCC cable operators must offer current subscribers who have an HD STB a 1394 upgrade, on request only, by December 31, 2003. Now, sometime by 2004, maybe mid 2004 or late 2004 I forget which, HD STBs offered by cable operators must have 1394 and DVI. The catch, the subscriber is required to pay for the truck roll, if the cable operator decides to charge the fee. The other catch, OSD (on screen display) is optional, which means you may or not get to see your EPG and etc over the 1394 bus. Oh yeah, and there is no certification process for any of this 1394 stuff, so even if the STB offers OSD, there is no guarantee that any of it will work right on the HDTV. But hey, this is better than nothing.

[bbertha]

:) I went through the same process. But then I saw the picture on the Mitisubishi so I bought the 55777. Then I finally got my Zenith Sat520 and multdish hooked up. Only get 4 channels of HD and am using the Component inputs. Bottom line the picture is fantastic. DVI vs Firewire is politics. Copy protection vs ease of connection (boy wouldnt that be nice) If the consumer wins it will be firewire. As an aside Mitisu promise is to offer an upgrade path if the standard changes. Having now purchased my third mitsu TV ill happily deal with the DVI problem when it rears its ugly head. Probably in digital TV is hollyweird will want its fair share of royalties and wont release new product unless the carriers have copy protection. Time will tell. In the meantime I am enjoying grat video.

[maestronn]

According to the memorandum of understanding signed between Cable System Operators and Consumer Electronics Manufacturers at a minimum HD devices should be equipped with a DVI interface. Remember that the DVI interface is a unidirectional interface that transfers the uncompressed video data. Firewire is bi-directional and a “smarter” interface. As part of the agreement, cable operators have to provided STB with a enabled firewire interface by mid 2004. If the TV your looking at doesn’t have a DVI interface but has a firewire interface that’s OK. There will be support for both in the future of HDTV.