PIP, POP, DVR, tuners, and cable broadcasts

[DennisK]

I have a standard TV now with PIP and two tuners. Connected to Comcast, it does PIP allowing to flip through any channel on any station. It has three selectable (rear) inputs as well, so Comcast runs in one, a VHS recorder in a second, and a DVD player in a third. PS2 and Gamecube get connected via jacks in the front. I understand this TV, bought 11 years ago, it's about to be retired. And I thought that was complicated when I first got it.

I've been learning about and shopping for an HDTV for the past month. Was initially considering the 50-inch Panasonic 500U plasma. Went to a number of stores with my family and we decided a 50-inch is "nice" but a 60-inch is "dramatic. I'm now deciding between either the 628 or 827 flavor of a 62-inch Mitsubishi.

BASIC QUESTION #1: WHEN WOULD ONE USE TWO HDTV TUNERS?

The 628 has 1 ATSC (HDTV) tuner and 2 NTSC (analog) tuners. The 827 has 2 of each. Each model has PIP and 3 POP.
I've talked to loads of sales people and friends. I'm told Comcast only allows me to PIP or POP one window at a time -- whether it is HDTV or standard. That certainly doesn't seem to be the case with my standard TV today. They said the other inputs into PIP/POP windows would need to be via other components (DVD player, antenna, video game player, whatever) -- I understand how I can have different inputs into different windows. Next, I read that a Comcast two-tuner DVR allows me to watch two windows and record one, and various other permutation. I watch its little demo and it looks like it creates its own self-contained PIP window/application.Then I read somewhere that the one window limitation is only if an external tuner is used. External tuner? Would that be like a HDTV cable box or Comcast DVR? So if the HDTV has two inboard tuners, and one connection to the cable feed, then all is well in terms of watch any channel in either window?

BASIC QUESTION #2: WHAT"S THE DIFF BETWEEN THE COMCAST DVR AND MITSUBISHI'S INBOARD DVR?

I read that Comcast encypts certain but not all of its content/broadcasts. For example, I'd think it would not encrypt any local programming. But I found myself wondering if that only matters if you are trying to connect an external non-Comcast DVR. In the case of the Mitsbishi 827, it's inboard. Maybe on the safe side of encryption? With the Mitsubishi, one person told me only non-encrypted programs could be recorded, while another person told me it can record anything. The Mitsubishi comes with a TV Guide, yet I heard Comcast comes with its own tailored version of the TV Guide.

Man, it's like you need an HDTV degree to understand all this stuff. I've already gone by plasma vs microdisplay, 1080 vs 720, interlaced vs progressive, and so on. I wish I could be like my wife. She only cares about silver or black, what the TV stand will look like, and does she get to buy matching sofas...

For anyone with answers to my two questions, thanks!

[rudyusmc1980]

the two tuners on the 827 will allow you to watch something else while recording into the tvs dvr. mine, the 825 only has one HD tuner, so I cannot watch anything else while recording, to include other inputs. so that is a very simple answer to your number one question.

for number two, the mits tvguide onscreen program sucks. noone i have read likes it. unfortunately, it is the tvguide companies fault (gemstar). they do not allow any code changes to their product beyond the color of the background.

the 827's internal dvr might actually duplicate everything the comcast box does, and if it does, you would be able to save about 15 to 20 bucks a month on the bill, without including the $60 fee to install a cable card.

you should make SURE that the 827 can:
record one HD program while watching another.
record two HD programs while watching a previously recorded program.
record two HD programs while watching another input (dvd)

If it cannot do these three things, then forget it. you will be as sorely dissapointed as I am in the 825.

just to make sure you know, if you go the cable card route, you will not have access to ondemand movies, payperview and the cable companies program guide. if you don't use ondemand, it's no big deal. You will still be able to subscribe to things like HBO and NHL Center Ice.

[DennisK]

Thanks for your reply. I've decided to take a whack and see if I can get an answer from Mitshibishi. Have asked them the following:

[quote on]
With the 827's inboard DVR, two ATSC tuners, two NTSC tuners, and PIP/POP capabilities, am I able to:
[1] record one HD program while watching another?
[2] record two HD programs while watching a previously recorded program?
[3] record two HD programs while watching another input (e.g. DVD Player)?
[4] record anything broadcast over Comcast cable via the inboard DVR? I've heard conflicting stories about how Comcast encryts its broadcasts, but unclear if that limitations to not being able to record are limited to externally connected non-Comcast DVRs or the 827's inboard DVR as well. Maybe the 827's inboard DVR is on the "other side" of that encryption.
[5] take full advantage of the Mitsubishi-provided TV Guide with Comcast cable? I read somewhere that it may be the case that only Comcast's customized TV Guide with Comcast's own DVR works properly.
[quote off]

When (if) I get their answer, I'll post again here.

[57U]

A few things off the top of my head.

1. The Comcast DVR contains the "key" to unlock encrypted programmes.
2. The Mits DVR requires that "key" to unlock encrypted programmes received via the QAM signals. That is accomplished via CableCARD. It is possible to receive unencrypted channels - see the HDTV FAQ "Can I receive Digital Cable"
3. Lots and Lots of people have issues with CableCARD not working properly.
4. S&V recently reported on the "free" IPGs that are available through the TV manufacturers. The "free" IPG is almost next to useless since:

A. It's extremely slow.
B. It doesn't have much flexibility when it comes to arranging channels.
C. The programme information is often generic, not specific to that programme.

Further clarification, it's not your Mits ATSC tuners, but rather the QAM tuners that tune the cable signal (just for clarification since ATSC signals are 8VSB and QAM is QAM...)

[DennisK]

QAM? IPG? Oh, but of course, quandrature amplitude modulation! OK, so it's how the digital information (an HDTV stream) gets encoded for transmission by a company like Comcast. 8VSB (correctly, 8-VSB) is the modedulation format used by ATSC. So two different formats. And IPG is interactive program guides, like TV Guide. (Haha, hey, remember who you're talking to -- I just looked all this up to understand). All this lingo is new to me.

The CableCard thing is something else I've been hearing things -- like you said, problems. Yet, if you use an external unit (DTV set-top box or Comcast's DVR in Comcast's case), then I've heard it's only a single input, meaning I would not be able to take advantage of the TV's PIP/POP capability. I think I mentioned I looked at the Comcast two-tuner DVR demo on its website, and could tell it was simply creating its own PIP. Seems like a no-win situation for the consumer who want to take full advantage of a feature-rich TV -AND- the DTV provider (whether cable or satellite).

Very confusing. I've worked on the business side of hi-tech for quite a while but this is like an entirely different world. Yet I'm intent in try to understand and visualize how all this stuff is going to work (or not work) before I lay down the cash. My system will start out simple -- HDTV, DVD player (yes, with HDMI, upconvert, and other goodies), and a Yamaha YSP-1000 with subwoofer (yes, I know this versus a true surround sound speaker system is arguable). I have a slab floor in the family room and not up to dealing with rug and wires for the rear surround. My family and I aren't audiophiles but I want so minimum quality.