Need an antenna

[RussTC3]

Ok. I've delayed long enough. I've fiddled with an indoor antenna for about 3 months now, and I've actually gotten some good results from it. Here is what antennaweb.org says I can pick up:
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/8884/hdtv1cz.jpg

And of those, here is what I've picked up using an indoor antenna (RCA Model Number: ANT200M):
5.1
8.1
39.1
43.1
50.1
61.1

Now, there are two channels (both VHF) I can't pick up that I want; WKYC-DT (3.1) and WOIO-DT (19.1). So here are the antennas I've looked at, please help me out, and let me know what else there is. I don't want to spend more than $70 or so, less is best:

Indoor:
Radio Shack 15-1880 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103917&cp)
Radio Shack 15-1892 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131034&cp)

Outdoor:
Radio Shack VU-90 XR (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?parentPage=family&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&productId=2103085&tab=features)
Channel Master 3679 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=3&CAT=&PROD=ANC3679)
Channel Master 3018 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=3&CAT=&PROD=ANCM3018)

So, what should I get? Or do you recommend something else? Thanks!

[Ratman]

Since you need VHF, try the indoor R/S antennas first. They can be easily returned.

Outdoor antennas are usually always best. If the indoor models don't work out, any of the three outdoor models should be suffcient.

[Splicer]

I am using the R/S 15-1892 with great success @ 30 miles from the towers. What I noticed is in the picture of the antenna you cannot see the 2 telescoping antennas for VHF on the back of the unit. I am lucky, only 1 station I want is on VHF but I can get the same network from another city on UHF so I don't even bother with the VHF antenna.

If you are more than 30miles from the tower an outdoor antenna may be best according to things I am being told about the curvature of the earth and all. If you do get an outdoor antenna make sure you have a rotor installed so you can change the antenna's position for the different channels. I like the RS indoor antenna because it has a built in rotor and a remote control to change it.

[mjones73]

All your channels are grouped close enough that you shouldn't need a rotator. NBC could possibly be a pain in the ass to get due to it being a low VHF channel, you'll probably want a high gain combo antenna to get a shot at it and still get your other UHF channels.

[Ratman]

And to note: for Channel 2 you will need to fully extend both of those VHF "sticks" which are not controlled by the remote in the 15-1892. You may still need to move/adjust the antenna for VHF channels.

[RussTC3]

And to note: for Channel 2 you will need to fully extend both of those VHF "sticks" which are not controlled by the remote in the 15-1892. You may still need to move/adjust the antenna for VHF channels.
But do you think I'd be able to receive that station with an indoor antenna, the one you're talking about?

[rochmndx]

What the heck.. try it. If it doesn't work return it, and report back to us.

[Ratman]

But do you think I'd be able to receive that station with an indoor antenna, the one you're talking about?

Splicer recommends that particular model, not me. I personally would suggest an outdoor antenna.

But I would recommend trying what's easily affordable, returnable and test all of the options. Start small and work your way up...

I personally went through 4 different indoor antennas (powered/unpowered) and two outdoor antennas before I got it right.

There is not definitive solution. It's all trial and error. You're on the right track!

[rochmndx]

Well... You COULD get a cm 4228, and a medium-large size VHF antenna [or a good combo]

This would definately pull every thing with ease, but If you don't need it, don't get it.

[Splicer]

Correct. The VHF 'sticks' are NOT controlled by the remote.

[RussTC3]

So I guess I'm going to go to my local Radio Shack tomorrow and pick up the 1892. See how that goes.

A question on the Outdoor antennas. The Radio Shack one says its rated for 70 miles UHF and 90 miles VHF. If that's the case, it's much better than CM's 3679 (50/60miles).

And basically the same price. Now that I think about it, if that antenna is just as good, or better, than the Channel Master, I think I'll pick that up instead of the indoor one.

What do you all think? Also, is it a "High Gain" antenna? Because I would want one of those right?

[DougRuss]

I would go with the Outdoor One !! You've already wasted 3 months playing games with Indoor Antennas....get it over with and Enjoy your Tv !! :sightv:

[rochmndx]

Outdoor antenna milage means next to NOTHING... especally when it comes to radio shack and off brand antennas.

Radio Shack used to make the UV-210. A deep fringe antenna that had milage ratings of somthing like 210 miles for VHF-Lo (CH. 2-6), 175 miles for VHF-Hi (Ch. 7-13), and somthing like 135 miles for UHF, and FM from 135 Miles.

As is common kowledge, VHF is generally impossible to pull in over 100 miles, even with a tower, pre-amp, and one of the few 180" + sized VHF antennas, such as on old Channel Master Quantum 1111 antenna.

UHF is generally impossible to pull in over 85 miles, unless you have a tower, pre-amp, and a 5-7" parabolic antenna, such as the old CM Pari-Scopes, a stack of two or more 8 bay antennas, or a large array of corner refector yagi's.

Full power FM stations can be pulled in from over 200 miles away with a REALLY sensitive and selective tuner, and a designated FM antenna, such as an Antenna Performance Specalities APS-13.

Anyways...

Radio Shack makes really lousy antennas. All of there present antennas use a swept back VHF element design, which is bad because you don't have nulls at 90 degree angles like you do with straight element antennas. This can be useful for nulling out multipath. The UHF sections are also really crumby, due tho there extremely generic design. RS also has really poor construction. I have an old UV 160, which I am going to use for parts in my 200" long APS-13 style FM antenna, and I'm not impressed with the construction. the insulators for a couple of the VHF elements have already broken off with very little handeling.

I much prefer Channel Master antennas. They put some effort into there design, and the construction is much better.

If you want an antenna that will really last, get a Winegard. They might be a tad bit more expensive, but there worth it. The VHF element insulators are designed so that they won't crack in 15-20 years, like other antennas. I've got a 140" Winegard VHF antenna waiting to be mounted this spring. This thing has been sitting in some guy's garage for the last 20 years, and look brand new. This thing will last at least another 30 years. Winegard also paints their booms blue, so the antennas won't be as noticable.

Try the 7084
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?CAT=&PROD=SHD7084
The thing that really counts is gain.

Gain is usually measured in decibles over reference dipole, or

[RussTC3]

Thanks for that info rochmndx, but since I wanted this as soon as possible, I went ahead and picked up the Channel Master 3018 from Lowes today. I couldn't install it today, because it's raining, so I hope to get up on my roof and install it tomorrow. Maybe. I've never done this before, I'm probably going to screw up. lol

I thought it came with a mast, but it doesn't (Radio Shack one did), so I guess I'm going to have to go pick one up, and I guess I'll have to pick up some straps or something. I have cable, so that should be okay.

What else do I need? Is this difficult? I know where I'm going to feed the line (where my existing DISH line is) so that's not a problem.

I just hope this works, I don't want to waste this money for nothing.

So, I'll let you all know how everything turns out. Thanks for the help/suggestions. :rockon:

[kevinw]

I mounted mine on my Chimney using parts from Home Depot. mast and mounts are available at Lowes too.

[rochmndx]

First off, you NEEEEEED to ground the antenna, and the coax cable.

Grounding you antenna: Get a ground clamp designed for water pipes, and attach it to the bottom of your mast. Attach it to you ground rod with 12guage or better copper grounding wire. Use a dedicated set of lead in standoffs to keep the wire a couple inches away from the side of the house, and a couple of inches away from the lead in.
Crounding the leadin: Get any off the shelf lightening arrestor, and insert it into co-ax right before it enters the house. This can be mounted right on the side of the house. Also, make sure to apply a little bead of silicone calk to outside of the connectors, so that moisture won't leak in. The owner of our local antenna service said that many people develop corroded/rusted connections because melted snow gets in the grounding arrestors. He has had many service calls of this type.

Both ground wires should be directly attached to a 4, 6, or even an 8 foot grounding rod. copper pipe of the same length will also work. DON'T use the cold water pipes in your house, or any other grounding source.

Since you are in the Violet zone, you are going to need a pre-amp. I thin thhat the Channel Master model they sell ar Lowes will suit your needs. You must insert the power supply before the signal goes to any splitters, or any thing other than a ground arrestor. It would be a good idea to wall mount the power supply not to far from where the lead in enters the house.

It's not a bad idea to turn on the built in FM trap.

How many components is the signal going to? If you have more than one hooked up, you should get a distrobution amp to match.

Get a compass, and aim the antenna right at the towers.

[Ratman]

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/hdreception/antenna_grounding.html
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmig8.htm



From: http://www.ehow.com/how_18805_install-ground-mounted.html
Grounding the antenna by wendell C.
The National Electric Code requires that the antenna structure be grounded to protect the installation from lightning. A 6AWG copper conductor may be used to connect the Antenna Metal Structure to the building ground system, if it is less than 20 feet. Keep the run as straight as possible.

If the distance exceeds 20 feet, a UL listed ground rod may be installed near the antenna, but the ground rod must be bonded to the building ground with 6AWG minimum copper conductor. A 10AWG copper conductor or larger may connect the antenna to the driven ground rod.

Where the coaxial cable enters the building, a coaxial grounding device must be installed to ground the shield. It must be connected to the building ground with a 14AWG or larger copper conductor.

It is strongly advised that a quality surge protection device (listed by UL1449 Revised) be used to terminate the coaxial cable at the satellite receiver. The surge protector should provide for the power connection, telephone connection, and local antenna connection, if needed. If a local antenna is used for TV reception, it must be grounded in the same manner as the satellite dish.

[rochmndx]

Thanks for the links, Ratman. I didn't remember all the specifics.

[Ratman]

Some info about ground rods:
http://www.dxing.com/tnotes/tnote02.pdf

[Splicer]

Ratman beat me to it. Grounding should be done with #6 copper.

Also you CAN use cold water pipe for your ground IF it is an older house that uses metallic pipes that exit the home with NO PVC after the metallic pipe. A newer home that uses PVC pipes MUST be grounded by a ground rod of 8'.

[rochmndx]

I've heard from a couple of sources that grounding an antenna to a water pipe isn't the best option.

[Ratman]

It is not optimal and in most areas, not allowed by electrical code.

Personally... there's no way in hell I'd not use a "real" ground rod.
Makes you think about getting a glass of water during a storm.

[RussTC3]

Well that just makes doing it myself even more scary. Grounding sounds complicated.

I haven't installed it yet because it's currently cold, snowing and very windy in my area. The last thing I need is to fall of my roof. So where do I get these "real ground rods" and lightening arrestors?

I'll keep you all informed. Unless of course I fall of my roof. lol

[rochmndx]

Grounding is not very complicated... all you need to do is wait about a week, and we'll be done arguing about exactly what to use.

[Ratman]

No one's arguing...

get a 6' ground rod from Radio Shack, Home Depot or Lowes. You can also get the proper clamps and 6-8 awg copper wire.

Driving it into the soil can be difficult (especially if you have frozen ground). I believe there are some tips contained in the URL's provided above.

You can get the antenna up and connected now. The 'threat' of lightning isn't that great at this time of year (depending on your location). Just be sure to get the ground connected as soon as you can.

You may already have an 'earth ground' available. Look outside where your electrical service enters the home. There may be a ground rod there that you can 'tap' into. If so... you're all set.

[RussTC3]

So how much am I looking at for the ground rod, pre-amp, wire, mast, straps, etc?

No wonder no one does OTA anymore.

Probably should have just tried the indoor Radio Shack antenna. I didn't want to buy a pre-amp. :(

EDIT: Would it be possible to use both my outdoor AND indoor antenna (so I could use the amplification of the indoor antenna)?

Is that possible?

[Ratman]

ground rod ~$15
ground wire ~$7 for 50'
5' mast $10
clamps or straps $5 a piece

Try the outdoor antenna without a preamp first... it can always be added later.

BTW... try looking for an existing "ground rod" as suggested above. That'll save you $$ and some effort.

[rochmndx]

If you don't have an "existing ground rod", and need a little more umph getting it into the ground, there are these great tools that slide over a t-post, and you pound the post into the ground with two hands. I have one, and it worked great getting the ground rod for the antenna at our last house into the ground.