Blu Ray BDP-S1 at Sony Style

[Brian@BBY]

Hey guys, Over the weekend i peeked in my area's sony store (fashion valley mall) San Diego. I was there with a friend dropping off his lap top at the apple store for warranty work and i hadn't ever been to the sony store and wanted to check it out real quick (been eyeing some lenses for my HDR-HC3) We cruise in and begin looking around. Soon me and my friend start heading in different directions in the store. Next thing i know im getting a tug on my shirt sleeve..."Hey dawg, they got the Blu-Ray player in there on a 70" QUALIA" for some reason I had butterfly's walking over to it. Similar to before you ask your boss for a raise, or get in a fight after school as a kid. I walk in and the rep is standing there fiddling around with it. My buddy starts asking him questions like what is it outputting (sony style rep claims 1080p) my friend then asks how's it connected? Firewire? he says no...HDMI. I sit down and he starts playing some clips on a demo disk. Now, i've seen the HD-DVD and i was impressed with what i saw on the BBY demo endcap, but it was on a ****ty wesinghouse 42" LCD which left a little to be desired but still blew 480p out of the water. This was nothing short of amazing. First let me say that the QUALIA 70" is a bad MAMA-JAMMA. should i come into some large coin, that will be in my MTV cribs dream home. Next i looked down at the player, all i could think was...how could toshiba, after seeing this...be ok with letting that HD-A1 out of it's cage. This things build quality was superb. Granted this was a "pre-production" Demo unit and that was expressed to us by the Associate. It looked and seem to perform quite well. I can't speak to boot up times, or anything but when booted up and switching between different menu's etc' it seemed to perform quite well. I commented that it was quite larger than regular dvd players and that it's depth looked equal to my 5 disc. The associate expressed that it probably weighed twice of the 5 disc too. This leads me to beleive that this is similar in nature to the HD-A1 being that it's basically a computer. The video footage was real nice. The associate claimed 1080p as i said, but i found out later that the QUALIA is unable to display that, so it was most likely 1080i scaled to 1080p by the TV. Never the less, it was very impressive. There is a really good Kill Bill demo where it rolls over a Standard def version and then into HD the difference is stunning and looks real world. My friend & I both agreed that Kill bill is probably one of the worst mastered Dvd's but it does show the ability of Blu-ray to get the picture right.

Now i'm torn between two loves. Do i do a ps3, a BDPs-1 or both...
if anyone has any Q's im happy to try and answer. apparently this DEMO box and Disc are at all of the or will be at all of the sony stores soon.

[abeas]

What's wrong with Westinghouse? I don't think they are ****ty. For some people that's all he or she can afford.

[max]

but it was on a ****ty wesinghouse 42" LCD which left a little to be desired but still blew 480p out of the water..

Brian aren't you the same guy I had a 10-15 page arguement with on how you thought your 480p plasma looked as good as any HDTV set out there, and weren't you insulting all of us with HDTV's saying "we only saw a difference in PQ to justify spending so much money on our TV's and getting ripped off?" Now a Westinghouse blows 480p out of the water? interesting...

Did the Sonystore also tell you that the new Blu-Ray player does not have a DD+ 5.1 decorder in it or DTS-HD or Dolby Loseless? so no next gen audio formats on it...

Are the first titles still only coming out on a 25gb disk or has the 50gb been released, which was there main advantage and selling point?

Are the disks still coming out in Mpeg2, or have they switched to VC-1?

These are the main question you should be asking because other than these things there will be no difference in PQ between the 2 formats. Only reason I want a Blu-Ray player also is because of the studio support. But if you know the answer to any of the questions please respond.

MAX,

[Brian@BBY]

Brian aren't you the same guy I had a 10-15 page arguement with on how you thought your 480p plasma looked as good as any HDTV set out there, and weren't you insulting all of us with HDTV's saying "we only saw a difference in PQ to justify spending so much money on our TV's and getting ripped off?" Now a Westinghouse blows 480p out of the water? interesting...

Did the Sonystore also tell you that the new Blu-Ray player does not have a DD+ 5.1 decorder in it or DTS-HD or Dolby Loseless? so no next gen audio formats on it...

Are the first titles still only coming out on a 25gb disk or has the 50gb been released, which was there main advantage and selling point?

Are the disks still coming out in Mpeg2, or have they switched to VC-1?

These are the main question you should be asking because other than these things there will be no difference in PQ between the 2 formats. Only reason I want a Blu-Ray player also is because of the studio support. But if you know the answer to any of the questions please respond.

MAX,

Yes, i once owned an EDTV shame on me, however things worked out. I sold it after 1 1/2 yrs of use for enough to purchase a same size HDTV set with many more features with no money out of pocket. Things could have been worse, i could have bought an early model RP HD CRT with no HDMI that nobody would have wanted and been really screwed. Point is, i've learned alot since 2 years ago when i first came into the HD world. I would hope you would not try to flame me based off of your vested interest in HDDVD.

Now moving on to business:

The unit was not a production peice, and was said to be missing several components that the launch unit would contain. Will it include the decoders? i don't know....but i know my next receiver will.

The first Sony releases titles are single layer 25gb. and mpeg2. Other companies may choose VC-1 but i don't know for sure.

I agree that from a PQ standpoint there will be no visable differance (Unless your tv does 1080p) For me, I am brand concious. I haven't had much luck with Toshiba products ie: tv's with piss poor geometry, bad color replication etc. This is all IMO ofcourse. I personally don't look forward to the "New" anything from RCA & Toshiba...but when Samsung, Panasonic & Sony launch their new lines I'm the first one over in the Home Theatre dept. checking them out (those companies are backing blu ray).

lets stay on topic. thanks.

[Brian@BBY]

What's wrong with Westinghouse? I don't think they are ****ty. For some people that's all he or she can afford.

If you are ok with Grey blacks then i guess they are ok. I think there are better options for relatively the same price or only a slight bit more. Phillips or LG IMO make a better product for not much more and have decent black level performance. My point was, too show off the performance of HDDVD i think Best Buy should have chosen a better panel to display HDDVD. A samsung or sony LCD would have been a better choice. I don't think anyone can ague that. But i know why the westinghouse was chosen, High margin-quite Affordable and the 2nd largest flat panel LCD BB carries.

[max]

Yes, i once owned an EDTV shame on me, however things worked out. I sold it after 1 1/2 yrs of use for enough to purchase a same size HDTV set with many more features with no money out of pocket. Things could have been worse, i could have bought an early model RP HD CRT with no HDMI that nobody would have wanted and been really screwed. Point is, i've learned alot since 2 years ago when i first came into the HD world. I would hope you would not try to flame me based off of your vested interest in HDDVD.
thanks.

I am not flaming you just getting a few things straight. I have no vested interest with HD-DVD just because I own one, I will also own a Blu-Ray player and personally do not care who wins the format war. I will be prepared for either side.

I was only pointing out facts, that the main interest in Blu-Ray was that it was superior to HD-DVD when infact upon release it will be inferior. This is not good marketing in my books but Sony is known to show you the best first and hope you dont notice while they take the time to catch up to their words.

Truth is you will most likely not be able to see any difference in PQ between the 2 formats so why bother taking sides? I just want a Blu-Ray player and disks with what they said would be available.

I mean $1000 for a player and we get basic DD5.1, Mpeg2 and 25gb that isn't right. I am with you on this and I really hope Sony gets off of there ass and comes to play ball with HD-DVD. If there is going to be a format war the why not go all out.

MAX,

[Brian@BBY]

Max,

We, myself included tend to refer to Blu-Ray as "Sony" when there are players from many other manufacturers comming out. Any knowledge as to wether they will have built in decoders?

[max]

I worded it wrong in my previos post...Sorry about that.

I believe they will have the decorders built in since it is a Blu-Ray spec but the disks atleast at the beginning will not have the new audio formats on them. So no matter what player you use there will be no next gen audio, for now.

My theory is, this is a way for Sony to get you to double dip! Buy your favorite movie now and then bam! in 3 months they re-release it with lossless audio for $2 more than the one you already have... and since it's yours {mine} favorite flick we buy it again. I dont really like the "we are sheep" mentality they try to push on us, especially since we keep them in business but these are the things we have to deal with.

here is the breakdown of how I am a sheep! lol
- Scarface VHS $39.99
- Scarface "First Edition DVD" $49.99
- Scarface "Remastered DVD" $29.99
- Scarface "BLURAY" $n/a
- Scarface "Bluray with lossless" $n/a + $2

Needless to say I am waiting to here better things about the upcoming disks.

MAX,

[Ratman]

here is the breakdown of how I am a sheep! lol
- Scarface VHS $39.99
- Scarface "First Edition DVD" $49.99
- Scarface "Remastered DVD" $29.99
- Scarface "BLURAY" $n/a
- Scarface "Bluray with lossless" $n/a + $2


I have the Laserdisc that I might be willing to sell if you want to complete the collection! :D

"You want a war? I'll give you a war! Come and meet my little friend...."

[Brian@BBY]

I worded it wrong in my previos post...Sorry about that.


My theory is, this is a way for Sony to get you to double dip! Buy your favorite movie now and then bam! in 3 months they re-release it with lossless audio for $2 more than the one you already have... and since it's yours {mine} favorite flick we buy it again. I dont really like the "we are sheep" mentality they try to push on us, especially since we keep them in business but these are the things we have to deal with.


MAX,

Would you really re-buy a movie so you can listen to it in 2 channel lossless? Do you really think this is a conspiracy to sell movies twice...lol at a whopping $2 increase.

[max]

not 2ch but I would buy it to listen to it in 7.1ch lossless. which they will do eventually, and yes there is always a scheme to make as much money off of 1 movie as they can.

MAX,

[gparris]

That is why I am waiting for 7.1 channel lossless so I can plug at least the analogue 7.1 outputs of the (winning?) high def DVD player into my AVR with 8 channel analogue inputs.
Sure, the HD DVD pictures are amazing, but so will be the sound, too.
I have a complete collection of "Fifth Element" like max has "Scarface", so I know the feeling as they continued to re-release it.

[max]

gparris, you should really sit down and listen to the DD+ tracks on the HD-DVD's. They are a nice improvement over standard DD and DTS. Very clean sounding.

[AV_Integrated]

I saw a Sony player at the Sony Style in Tysons Corner, VA and it looked phenomenal. No better than the Toshiba at Myer-Emco in Fairfax though as far as I could tell... Which shouldn't be suprising to anyone.

One of the key factors is having a good display. The Toshiba, when hooked up to a Toshiba 1080p DLP had serious false contouring issues and looked a bit soft. This led me to have a fairly poor first impresson. But, Myer-Emco moved that player to a Sony 1080p display and the jump in quality was huge.

I have never believed that we would see much difference between the two formats for video quality. Blu-ray, with more space, has the potential to up the bit-rate and make things look a bit better, but my bet is that they simply won't anytime soon.

I will take my PS3 for a year or so before I get a second, or third generation Blu-ray (or HD-DVD?) player.

[wifeB8]

...............I have never believed that we would see much difference between the two formats for video quality. Blu-ray, with more space, has the potential to up the bit-rate and make things look a bit better, but my bet is that they simply won't anytime soon..............

It’s called compression efficiency. You don’t need VC1/MPEG4 to match MPEG2 bit-rates when VC-1's compression efficiency is approximately twice that of MPEG2's. The reason you will see higher bit-rates with MPEG2/bluray (Sony titles) is because you need it to match the video quality of VC1 at a lesser bit-rate. And no you just can’t say because there is more storage space we can up the bitrate. At a certain rate you get what is called the law of diminishing returns where there is no visual difference between the original video and the compressed video. The storage advantage of bluray is not as significant for HD encoding as Sony might lead you to believe.

[gparris]

gparris, you should really sit down and listen to the DD+ tracks on the HD-DVD's. They are a nice improvement over standard DD and DTS. Very clean sounding.

max, I really had to do some bargaining to get my SONY SXRD with stand last month and most recently, my new Denon AVR-4306 with matching Denon stereo side amp!
- All this, after getting the TSU7000 after Christmas for my birthday.

The question I get is when I want high def players is always about the back surround discrete 7.1 (where is it) and why there are two high def DVD formats when I say I'm getting both of the players.

I will probably go for BD if the price goes to the HD DVD player and it has discrete 7.1 outputs - and of course, due to more software studios in the mix.

So now, I have been told to wait, but I DO believe you max, truly. :D

[Brian@BBY]

The storage advantage of bluray is not as significant for HD encoding as Sony might lead you to believe.

Do you work in the movie industry? is this based on Fact or YOUR opinion?

[wifeB8]

http://www.videsignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?printableArticle=true&articleId=184417216

http://www.iee.org/OnComms/PN/multimediacomms/Alois%20Bock.pdf

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_302-sunna.pdf

http://www.engadget.com/2005/11/29/sony-pictures-to-use-mpeg-2-on-blu-ray/

If you do the research you can answer that question yourself to see if Sony’s Bluray space advantage as it applies to HD encoding using MPEG2 was only in hype, and not based in execution and reality.

[Brian@BBY]

Did some reading and found some interesting points of view:
(May be long, but it's a good summarization of why sony is choosing to stick with mpeg2 FOR NOW)

There are reasons why virtually all the content will be done in MPEG-2 rather than MPEG-4 Part 10 (aka AVC or H.264) or VC-1 for a while: Experience, available space and licensing fees.

No matter how you look at it MPEG-2 it is a lot more mature with all the years it has been in use, so the tools/encoders have been proven and produce very high quality video now. Add to this that the MPEG-2 codec has been further tweaked for HD and it's even better than before.
The studios great deal of experience dealing with MPEG-2 gives them the ability to work the compression variables associated with it in order to get the best output (MPEG-2 is not the "black box" many consumer software makers would have you believe -- and neither is MPEG-4 Part 10). They don't have as much experience with MPEG-4 Part 10. Eventually, as their experience and comfort level grows, they will probably also shift to MPEG-4 Part 10. However, there are some instances where MPEG-2 will output a better image than MPEG-4 Part 10. When the tools/encoders for H.264/VC-1 start to improve the studios can and probably will then also move on to using them.

MPEG-4 Part 10 was created/optimized for the best resolution at the lowest reasonable bit rates. It was not optimized for just getting the best image quality. Thus if you can "afford" a higher bit rate (say 50 Mbps or higher) then MPEG-2 may give just as good -- and maybe even better -- quality as MPEG-4 Part 10.

The 50 GB Blu-ray disks give the content suppliers this option. I know of no movie right now (other than maybe some of the old epics which were several ours long) which would require more than 50 GB even at a moderate bit rate for MPEG-2.

It may be wise to allow the content suppliers to use what they are good at rather than us buying disks where they are still "experimenting" with the new compression methods and thus may be providing an inferior product.

Finally, the licensing fees for MPEG-2 are less than the fees for MPEG-4 Part 10 . Eventually, the fees for these will come down. Until then, for the reasons mentioned above, I don't mind the content providers avoiding the higher fees.

Also, you need MPEG-2 support for playback of DVDs, so you still can't remove it from the players.

(Some sections quoted from another forum)

[max]

The only problem with the 50gb theory is Sony has yet to get a working 50gb disk to the public so that pretty much kills that theory.

VC-1 was invented as a codec for HD Video and his backed by Joe Kane, ISF founder as the superior format.

MAX,

[damondlt]

SO if one was to buy one of these what would be a wise choice?

[max]

I dont think there is a wise choice right now because it's anyone's guess who will win.

But from a value standpoint I would say HD-DVD, you get:
-HD Video Quality
-Next Gen Audio formats NOW
-Much Cheaper {%50}

and if the HD-DVD format ends up losing the war atleast it is still an excellent upscaling DVD player that can be used for years in your bedroom or livingroom or anywhere else you have a TV.

MAX,

[wifeB8]

............There are reasons why virtually all the content will be done in MPEG-2 rather than MPEG-4 Part 10 (aka AVC or H.264) or VC-1 for a while: Experience, available space and licensing fees.

All content from whom? There is only one studio encoding in MPEG2 for the next get format and we all know who that is. Until other bluray studios announce their intention that is a week argument.


MPEG-4 Part 10 was created/optimized for the best resolution at the lowest reasonable bit rates. It was not optimized for just getting the best image quality. Thus if you can "afford" a higher bit rate (say 50 Mbps or higher) then MPEG-2 may give just as good -- and maybe even better -- quality as MPEG-4 Part 10.

From all accounts 54Mbps is getting pretty close to the theoretical limit. In real world application you will be lucky if you see half that. I you have any knowledge of this being different by all means I want to hear it.



It may be wise to allow the content suppliers to use what they are good at rather than us buying disks where they are still "experimenting" with the new compression methods and thus may be providing an inferior product.

If you think the new HDDVD movies out using VC1 are an inferior product compare to what is available using MPEG2 at the moment than I’m not sure what you are looking at.


Finally, the licensing fees for MPEG-2 are less than the fees for MPEG-4 Part 10 . Eventually, the fees for these will come down. Until then, for the reasons mentioned above, I don't mind the content providers avoiding the higher fees.

Hugh!.....Who is paying a premium for the next gen HD hardware. Bluray or HDDVD adopters?

[Ratman]

Gentlemen...

Let's keep the discussion specific to the thread topic "Blu Ray BDP-S1 at Sony Style ".

If you want to discuss the formats, please use the existing thread:
http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showthread.php?t=21236

[Brian@BBY]

The only problem with the 50gb theory is Sony has yet to get a working 50gb disk to the public so that pretty much kills that theory.

VC-1 was invented as a codec for HD Video and his backed by Joe Kane, ISF founder as the superior format.

MAX,

TDK has a working 200gb BDR i don't see why they wont release a 50gb Dual layer when they can make an 8 layer 200gb BDR.

*note the 200gb was a prototype just to see if it could be done, and is not within spec of the players comming to market.

[Brian@BBY]

Gentlemen...

Let's keep the discussion specific to the thread topic "Blu Ray BDP-S1 at Sony Style ".

If you want to discuss the formats, please use the existing thread:
http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showthread.php?t=21236

My bad Ratman, sometimes you get to replying and don't even remember the original topic.

[max]

TDK has a working 200gb BDR i don't see why they wont release a 50gb Dual layer when they can make an 8 layer 200gb BDR.

*note the 200gb was a prototype just to see if it could be done, and is not within spec of the players comming to market.

Funny thing is though Sony has not yet produced a working 50GB disk... Prototypes are to build hype and allow the company work arounds to the flaws...

MAX,

[Brian@BBY]

Funny thing is though Sony has not yet produced a working 50GB disk... Prototypes are to build hype and allow the company work arounds to the flaws...

MAX,

The first DVDs were released in March '97, it wasn't until December '97 that the first dual-layer DVD was released ("Contact"). So for eight months, the only DVDs you could buy were single-layer ones. Sony "plans" to have recordable dual layer BR discs avail in june 06. I'll take a friendly bet that by December you'll see BR movies in dual layer? any takers...winner buys & ships the other a movie on their favored format of his/her choice. =)

[max]

The first DVDs were released in March '97, it wasn't until December '97 that the first dual-layer DVD was released ("Contact"). So for eight months, the only DVDs you could buy were single-layer ones. Sony "plans" to have recordable dual layer BR discs avail in june 06. I'll take a friendly bet that by December you'll see BR movies in dual layer? any takers...winner buys & ships the other a movie on their favored format of his/her choice. =)

Even if the 50gb disks make it to the market by December, there will be about 100 BR movies released using 25gb... And these are some big movies {hero, underworld 2, Lord Of War, hitch..etc.}

So picture only having 25gb sapce, with an inferior codec that requires more space and special features content. No wonder none of the first releases have any next gen audio tracks on them... There is no room left. lol

MAX,

[wifeB8]

Well this might change if Sony decides to switch over to one of the newer encoding codecs, but based on how they have praise the virtues of storage when it comes to the next gen dvd it would look awfully bad for them to do that at this point. There asssssss is dangling in the wind on this one. The big question is what about the rest of the bluray studios? Will they leave Sony by themselves on this?