Widescreen LCD HDTV, which to buy?

[Venomous]

Site Support Link - Amazon has tons of LCD HDTV's with free shipping (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Faudio-video-portable-accessories%2Fb%3Fie%3DUTF8%26node%3D1065836&tag=dvdhd-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

While I'm sure you've had this requested of you hundreds of times in the past, I need help purchasing a High Definition TV.

First of all, I'd like to get down to reasoning I'm an 18 year old living at home, and I need an HDTV for my room for multiple reasons. Those reasons being: I plan on moving my PC up into my bedroom, along with my game systems. I want to experience the HD era for gaming movies, etc, all in one. Since neither my PC nor my monitor have the ability to recieve a TV signal, nor the ability to be connected to my game consoles, I need something that can do both. And since CRT HDTVs don't have a VGA input, they're out. There's a handful of other reasons as well, such as a dislike of the black bars, and not wanting to modify my TV to recieve a TV signal only to have to watch it on my tiny current monitor.

Anyways, back to business... here's the kicker in this little situation, I'm on an extremely tight budget, and Canadian, which means I can't afford some fancy high-grade model. Anyways, I've found a couple of suitable products, which I'll list below. Basically, I need help to decide if these products are any good.

There's this Insignia model (http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFS10059894&catid=23243&test%5Fcookie=1), which is in the running due to price and features. Then there's this model (http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFS10065603&catid=23243), and this Prima model (http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10068433&catid=&test%5Fcookie=1). The latter two are a bit too pricey, but still I'm considering them. While I know I should be going all out for an HDTV, I just don't have the funds. And I need an all-in-one LCD HDTV in order to incorporate my needs. Also, gaming without image issues is a key factor.

So, those are my options at the moment, the first one being favored at the moment, other budget (Canadian pricing) options are welcomed, but most importantly I'd like to know if any of the ones I listed above are any good.

[kahanabob]

Find out who makes the componets for Insigina. I think on this board, might be in FAQ's there is a list of where certian brands get there componet parts from.

[damondlt]

If you have a Walmart,Look there because they will have what you are looking for.They also have a web site that you could browse,maybe even order from.You should be able to find what you are looking for ,at a good price. NO JOKE!! Plus I have heard nothing good about Insignia tvs.

[Venomous]

Well, I did some brief research, and it seems either "Sansui" or "Orion", or both, are the ones making the Insignia HDTVs (which is Best Buy's own brand). Now I have no idea who either of those companies are, so I don't really know about their quality.

Next off, I have browsed the Wal-Mart site, and I don't remember seeing anything I really liked the first time around. But I'll check again. This next bit doesn't really pertain to Wal-Mart, but still:

If I'm have to buy from a site, it has to be Canada-based (IE: a .ca domain), as US site prices can't be trusted for Canadian purchases. I say this because most companies don't price based on the real value of the Canadian dollar, and instead pretty much just price double the USD cost (numerically speaking). Whereas in reality the CAN currency is something like 85 cents to the US dollar.

I'd really like to buy an acceptable model of HDTV. I know they say you get what you pay for, but in this case I'd rather get the best quality I can for the little I have to work with budget-wise. Obviously I don't expect a noname brand HDTV that cost $500 (for example) to perform as well as a $5000 Sony model, but that doesn't mean I want to end up with crap either.

What I really need is an HDTV that fits my specifications (VGA input, etc), my budget, and is able to play console-based video games without any sort of ghosting or other common visual issues.

[damondlt]

Well first things first ,What size tv? A Cheap 26" HD with all the things you want on it ,is going to run over $600,easy. As stated many times in these forms 26" HD tv ,won't look much differen't then a Standard def tv!.Maybe you could save some money on an enhanced definition tv instead?

[bored28]

I'd say save up your money for a bit longer and get a truly good LCD. Sharp, Sony, Panasonic... all have good LCDs that are dependable and supply the user with a great picture. With a brand like Insignia, etc... you could be buying your way into a bucket of troubles. Thats my 2 cents.

[oman321]

I've had good experience with the Olevia that I purchased last year on special. Check it out, the panels are made by Phillips and some of the built in technology is the same as LG.

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?hl=en&q=lt26hvx&sa=N&tab=wf

Has all the connections you'll need and you can't go wrong for the money.

[JU1CYFRU1T]

I'd say save up your money for a bit longer and get a truly good LCD. Sharp, Sony, Panasonic... all have good LCDs that are dependable and supply the user with a great picture. With a brand like Insignia, etc... you could be buying your way into a bucket of troubles. Thats my 2 cents.
The question is; how long would it take for you to "save" another $500-1000? If you can do it in a matter of a few months, I'd wait. like bored28 said, you can get a good LCD TV for $1000-1500. If getting that kind of money saved up is going to take more than a year, maybe you only wait 6 months and get a $800-999 set.

If you must get the set now, you're taking a chance. You have said yourself that you aren't expecting $5000 worth of performance from a $500 set, but there is a reason that there aren't many sets in that price range. Producing QUALITY products at that price isn't easy to do. You may find a gem, or you may find a terd... it's a gamble.

IMO, wait... save your money... buy a GOOD TV. You don't want your first HDTV to be garbage, do you?

JU1CYFRU1T

[Venomous]

Well, actually, the reason I pointed this out earlier... the fact that I'm 18 and living at home is a major factor. It's impossible for me to save, as I have no income. My mom would be buying this TV, and she refuses to buy an expensive model. Multiple reasons for that though: she's a single middle-class parent, and she feels that it's completely insane to spend over $1000 on a television.

I'm afraid I just don't have much time, even if I could save. I need to move all of this stuff up to my room, but that involves a great deal of preperation, and if I don't have the HDTV by the time I do this... it's pointless. I'd end up with a computer, my game consoles, and whatever else there, and no screen to hook them all up to.

And to answer an earlier question, I want a 26'' - 27'' model. I don't need anything particularly large as my room is only so big and the view distance between myself and the TV will be only a few feet large. You know what they say about that, there's certain suggested view distances between the person, and the size of the TV. The bigger the TV, the farther away you're supposed to sit in order to get the best possible quality from the set.

[Ratman]

IMO... if you have no income and Mom is springing for the purchase. Take your best shot making a decision and accept the gift graciously.

I really can't address the "gaming" aspects for any TV. But, hopefully someone will provide their opinion, keeping in mind your restrictions, to get you the best bang for the buck.

The Insignia model (I believe) is manufactured by Orion. They also manufacture Sansui and a few Toshiba TV's.

None of the sets have an internal HD tuner. So... you would need to purchase an external box (or an HD capable PC tuner card?) and an Antenna for over the air or rent an HD box from a cable provider for HD TV programs.

[JU1CYFRU1T]

Well, actually, the reason I pointed this out earlier... the fact that I'm 18 and living at home is a major factor. It's impossible for me to save, as I have no income. My mom would be buying this TV, and she refuses to buy an expensive model. Multiple reasons for that though: she's a single middle-class parent, and she feels that it's completely insane to spend over $1000 on a television.
Well, then I would seriously consider looking into the set that oman321 suggested.

I know that the site he gives is not a Canadian based site, but if you look for it up there, you may find something that fits your shopping budget. I don't have experience with either (Olivea, or Insignia), so look for whichever you can find at a better Canadian price.

JU1CYFRU1T

[Venomous]

To be honest, this whole HDTV purchase is making me uneasy. It's such a large purchase, and I have to be absolutely sure I've made the right choice before I order online (otherwise there's a big return hastle, shipping costs to deal with, etc). Maybe I should take your advice and go for a more pricey model, I'm not talking thousands of dollars, but instead going for an $800 model, as opposed to a $600, for example. Not to mention the fact that I'm coming up with so few viable choices. The two Insignias, the Prima, and possibly an Olevia seem to be my only options at the moment.

Then there's the fact that I forgot to take post-purchase details into consideration. I'm going to need to get an HDTV reciever, and an antenna, and who knows what else. This is becoming much more complicated than I previously expected. Although thinking about it now, if I went for a slightly more expensive model with an internal tuner, some of these post-purchase costs wouldn't be a problem.

[bored28]

Well, if you have $1000, I would ask why you have not been looking at the 26" Sharp LCD (sharp LC-26D4U). For roughly that amount, you'd get an HDTV with a built-in HDTV tuner, CableCard, HDMI, etc... all you need and if you so a bit of searching, i'm sure you'd be able to find it online for a reasonable price. I've had a sharp 30" LCD for a while now and I cannot say enough about how great it has been. I don't use it anymore, in fact it is in my closet right now collecting dust because I just bought a 50" 1080p Samsung DLP, but it is still a great set. I would look into that Sharp, or perhaps a Panasonic... both have great LCD products in my opinion.

UPDATE: just so you know, i've just read a few reviews stating how a few customers over at Amazon.com bought an Olevia and hated the picture. They returned it and got a Sharp/Panasonic and loved it. I would go over there and read some reviews (among many other sites that have reivews of course) just to make youself feel comfortable about purchasing a product online. Cheers!

[Ratman]

Well, if you have $1000, I would ask why you have not been looking at the 26" Sharp LCD (sharp LC-26D4U). For roughly that amount, you'd get an HDTV with a built-in HDTV tuner, CableCard, HDMI, etc... all you need and if you so a bit of searching, i'm sure you'd be able to find it online for a reasonable price.

The key factor is that "he" is 18 years old, no job living with a single parent and doesn't have $1000. His Mom is footing the bill. If I'm correct, I'd think that he doesn't want to abuse Mom's generosity and would feel very bad if the TV would have major problems and put them out even more money.

So... consider the situation and try to take those parameters into consideration.

[Venomous]

Wow, actually, that's a nice HDTV. I've heard the Sharp AQUOS line of HDTVs is the best in the market, and that is a solid looking television (after doing research). And the price should be relatively affordable by my standards if Amazon.com follows the proper exchange rate. However, 966.83 CAD +tax still equals quite a bit (that's easilly a few hundred dollars of tax), then there's shipping costs. And while I love alot of the features of that particular model, on the Sharp site they say it has "less than a 12ms response time". And that could be a problem, as research tells me that in order to avoid image issues when it comes to gaming, I have to have an 8ms response time or less.

And while we're at it, what do you guys think of this Prima model (http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10068433&catid=) that I mentioned earlier? It has alot of nice features (heck, in some ways it's even superior to the Sharp model), a reasonable Canadian price, and such. And it is given a good rating. However, I'm not sure what the response time is, it doesn't have an internal tuner, and I'm not sure if the brand is reliable. Any comments?

[bored28]

Firstly, if you can actually see a 4ms difference, you are Godly. ;) Seriously though, you will not see any type of latency issues with these sets. The 30" Sharp LCD that I have has an 8ms response time and i've never had any problems playing my xbox or xbox 360. My DLP that I just bought has a 12ms response time and I still can't see a difference so I truly don't think you will notice any type of difference. I saw one of the 26" Sharps for 750 USD = ~850 CAN, and there is free shipping/no tax on, which is explicitly noted on the Amazon page.

Prima/Olevia/etc are in no way, shape or form superior to a Sharp or Panasonic LCD. Why? Manufacturing. Sharp was the first to come out with a mass produced LCD, which is why they have a far superior picture than any other LCD set out there. Panasonic is much the same, which is why you pay a premium. I cannot stress this enough: you pay for what you get. If you decide to skimp out and get something sub-par, then thats what you'll be stuck with. I've been through it so I know what its like. Don't dig yourself a hole that you cannot get out of.

I can see that you are adament about getting one of the step-down sets, like Prima or Olevia. This will be my final 2 cents for this thread. Ask yourself this question: why would I buy this set? Why would you buy an Olevia over a Sharp or a Prima over a Panasonic? If its only money, then you should do a bit of saving (get a job! ;)). It most certainly is not technically superior, so you should sit down and write out the pros and cons about each set and what the possible outcomes could be given your purchase. Perhaps you'll save 100-200CAN on a Prima, but what is that worth to you with regards to Picture quality, quality hardware, customer support, warranty issues, replacement parts, features, etc.... Thats it, i'm done! Good luck with your purchase.

[Venomous]

Oh, yes, of course, of course. I merely meant it was statistically superior, in some ways. For example, the Prima has a contrast of 900:1, whereas the Sharp is 800:1. Now I don't presume to know what those numbers mean, but... yes, hopefully you understand what I mean.

Also, I see what you mean, saving a buck or two may seem like a good idea knowm but I'll pay in a different way down the line. In reality though, I can explain to mym om that if we get a better model (one with a built-in tuner) we won't need to by a $250 satellite box, or whatever. And as for the response time, I'm just going by what the websites have told me. Anything under 25ms will do, but under 8ms will guarantee no ghosting, and such. So while I'm seriously considering this Sharp model (especially since you pointed out that I may be able to get it for $850 Canadian)... I don't want to buy it and find out my gaming is hindered, since that's one of my primary reasons for getting an HDTV.

[Ratman]

Don't sweat the "contrast ratio" specs... they will make very little or no difference whatsoever.

Before you "jump". Consider these things:
Can you get digital signals over the air with an antenna?
Does you local cable provider send any digital channels unencrypted?
Do you currently subscribe to cable?
Do you currently subscribe to satellite?
If not and don't intend to... and can't over the air signals, you may want to just look for a "monitor" and concentrate on the 'gaming' connectivity for the time being.

[Venomous]

Q: Can you get digital signals over the air with an antenna?
A: I have no idea. I know it's possible in some areas of the world, but I'm not sure if that applys to Canada, and my province in general (N.B.)

Q: Does you local cable provider send any digital channels unencrypted?
A: Once again, no idea.

Q: Do you currently subscribe to cable?
A: Yes, we have standard cable at the moment, but we'll soon be switching to digital satellite and hopefully subscribing to the HD channels. As for digital cable, well, there's only one provider of that in my area and they are known as quite frankly... the worste company ever. They could care less about the consumer, they drastically overprice all of their services, give poor quality everything, and if you try and leave them they will not allow it. They'll make leaving cost more than staying.

Q: Do you currently subscribe to satellite?
A: See above. Our current cable service pretty much costs the same as satellite, so switching really is the better choice. More channels, digital signals, HD programming, etc. All of that for what is more-or-less the same cost.

[bored28]

Last one I promise! You seem to put quite an emphasis on response time. Don't. If a response time is lower than 25ms, then in most cases, the human perception cannot discern the differences below this metric. It is the same as in audio: human hearing is usually only good from 20Hz to 20,000Hz and anything above or below that range is imperceptible to the human ear. Many gamers will tell you anything below 15ms is perfect, however; they really don't know the physics and science behind such a claim so I would argue that they truly don't know what they are talking about. Again, you will not be able to perceive any difference between 5ms-15ms, your reflexes and other perceptions are not that keen.

25ms is .025 seconds or 1/40 of a second. Humans, usually, can only perceive more or less anything above 100ms, or 1/10 of a second. Your reflexes usually can only react within a 250-500ms window. So, as the science shows, you cannot react fast enough to even respond to an image delayed by 8ms, or 1/125 of a second. It is physically and scientifically impossible. However, if you think you are super-human, then by all means ... buy into that nonsense that is scientifically unsubstantiated. I think your willingness to buy a product simply for the response time is misguided. Understand the facts and science behind such things. You, yourself, even said that you do not understand half of the things that we are saying here. So I would ask you, how do you know that a response time of 8ms is the way to go? Because of what a magazine stated? because of what your friends stated? Unless any of those individualy are well skilled in Calculus based Physics and Physiology, I would seriously doubt any of them are in any position to offer you advice in this arena. This is all information that you can easily obtain online through some advanced research. However, I'm telling you straight up that you will never see a difference between an 8ms and a 15 ms monitor. If you do, call MIT... they will want to study you.

[Venomous]

Well it's not about the numbers, it's about the side effects. For example, this image (http://www.flatpanels.dk/billeder/ghosting.jpg), it shows an image "ghosting". Where an image of an object trails behind the actual object causing a blur effect. That's one of the side effects of not having a fast response time. It can ruin a game if the ghosting (or various other image issues) are prominent enough. So while response times may not be noticeable to the human eye, the imaging problems a sub-standard response time causes are.

But don't take my words the wrong way, I'm not trying to argue, and I am infact grateful for the product suggestion, as at the moment the Sharp AQUOS seems like a solid choice. :)

[skylolow]

I know this isn't a LCD but take a look at the Samsung 30" HDTV $688
http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=347947&pCatg=5988
For your budget that may be your best bet on overall quality.

Otherwise have you ever thought about looking for a used HDTV. Its amazing what some people will be selling. Just keep your eyes open in your local ads. A one year old TV that sold new for 1200 to 1500 very well could be only 500 used.

[bored28]

I'll be as clear as possible here: ghosting is not a problem seen with digital televisions. If you knew how ghosting works, you would know that it has to do with analogue signals. Digital signals, which are made up of pixels, do not experience ghosting, Instead, the digital equivalent is block-errors where a pixel does not change fast enough and and error occurs that looks like blocky object. Again, you truly need to understand the science behind these topics and not just what people in magazines tell you. Response time usually has nothing to do with this problem in any means. When one thinks of response time in regards to gaming, they are concerned with latency.

Gamers have this feeling that they want their movement to be as instantaneous as possible for no good reason other than the fact that the numbers look fast. Response time is the time it takes a pixel on an LCD to change from one state to another (one color to another). Gamers think that this translates to a faster response time on their end when playing video games when in fact, it has no bearing on that. From the time you move your controller forward, gamers want their character to move forward as close to the time that they initiated the movement. Many tend to think that in order to eliminate the total latency from intiated movement to translated movement, they must have the lowest possible response time on their monitor so that the picture reacts to your movements as quickly as possible. However, as I stated above through the use of facts/statistics, such expectations are illconceived and misguided.

As I stated, you need to do further research on terms and how these things actually work if it is that important to you. Without having the proper perspective on what Response Time refers to shows me that you don't know what it truly means and what affects it has on your gaming performance. For the third and last time, i hope, i'm telling you that a response time of anything less than 25ms will not be noticable, and 12ms is precisely where you want to be. Go read some articles and some of the FAQs on this site to give you a better knowledge-base before you make such a purchase. That is my advice to you.

[Venomous]

Understood. My assumption that you weren't taking certain factors into account was obviously misguided. Now I understand exactly where you're coming from with this. And I'd also like to clarify on the fact that I never meant to challenge your information. I was merely being overly cautious, almost to the level of apparent paranoia. In reality my knowledge base for this sort of thing is basic at best, I learn what I need to in order to make a logical choice, and disregard the rest. It's now obvious to me that I was putting emphasis on the wrong features.

And in a follow up to earlier posts, I noticed that neither of the models mentioned above (the Samsung or the Sharp) seem to mention a VGA input. But after doing some minimal research I found out there was a VGA to HDMI cable that exists that would stop that from being a problem, so... yay.

[bored28]

You weren't challenging anything, rather merely looking for some information. If I come off as a bit overbearing, its only because i wish people to be as well-informed as possible. Let us know what you decide! Cheers!

[Ratman]

But after doing some minimal research I found out there was a VGA to HDMI cable that exists that would stop that from being a problem, so... yay.

Nah! VGA is an analog signal, HDMI is digital. No way a cable can convert.
Do you have a link?

[Venomous]

Nah! VGA is an analog signal, HDMI is digital. No way a cable can convert.
Do you have a link?

Well, I can't find the link anymore, but last night when I googled it I found atleast one result. It was a VGA to HDMI cable, it wasn't particularly long, and cost something like 12 or 15 dollars. I've tried multiple search results, and I can't seem to find it again though. So perhaps I was mistaken, but I'm almost certain I saw it.

[Ratman]

It really doesn't matter... you can't convert VGA to HDMI with only a cable.

I was just curious...

[Venomous]

Ah, well, damn. This creates a whole new set of problems, since I don't think my PC has DVI outputs (I'll check, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't). Aha! but apparently there's DVI to VGA cables and so on... so hopefully that won't be a problem.

[57U]

Just because a cable exists, doesn't mean it'll work for a particular application. There are several types of DVI. Please read the HDTV FAQ "DVI/HDMI Information".

As stated previously VGA is analogue. Some DVI is analogue, some is digital. Even when properly connected you need to ensure that the sending device is sending a signal that the receiving device can handle. It's not just a matter of connections.

In the same way you can connect an RCA cable to one device and the other end to another device and no signal passes because the inputs/outputs are incompatible. ie analogue audio output to a digital SPDIF input..., or video output connected to audio input (obvious, but an example)

[Venomous]

Well, it's been a few days since my last post, and I'm more-or-less posting this simply to say that I'm 95% sure I'll be getting the Sharp AQUOS model. Very little stands in my way at this point, all I have to do is make sure I can connect it to my PC, and find out if Amazon.com will ship it to Canada (I've tried to order smaller electronics from them in the past, and they wouldn't ship to Canada). So, if all goes according to plan I'll have it in no time at all. :)

[wthumann]

maybe its a little late, but i think you will love this one. I know I am loving it!

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-TC-26LX60-HDTV-HDMI-Connection/dp/B000ENQUDE/sr=1-7/qid=1159671390/ref=sr_1_7/102-2362216-6471350?ie=UTF8&s=audio-video

[waltchan]

The Insignia model (I believe) is manufactured by Orion. They also manufacture Sansui and a few Toshiba TV's.
Insignia LCD TVs are made by one of the Chinese TV companies, like Apex. Orion makes ALL of Toshiba CRT tube, LCD TVs sized 23" and under, and plasma TVs.

[Ratman]

That's for the info....

I guess the "real" manufacturer is still an unknown.