Is it possible to get uncompressed pcm 5.1 using...

[Herry Dunston]

a Samsung BD-P1000 and a Denon AVR2807 (receiver)? If so, how can I set this up?

[57U]

I'm pretty sure that it requires an HDMI V1.3 connection, or via six analogue cable connections between the devices. Same for Dolby TrueHD.

[wifeB8]

Anything above HDMI 1.1 can handle 8 channels of uncompressed PCM.
The AVR in question is HDMI 1.1 compliant, http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3038.asp.

I believe the Sammy BD player is also. So it appears you have two options HDMI or Analog outs. However read the following “Audio Options and Quality” section of the players review. It has some issues that may limit your sound calibration if using 5.1 analog out.

http://www.dvdtalk.com/hd/blu_in_the_face_samsung_bdp100.html

[57U]

wifeB8, can HDMI 1.1 handle TrueHD, DTS-HD? Or is 1.3 required for that? See below:

http://www.hdmi.org/resourcecenter/index.asp

[rudyusmc1980]

hdmi 1.1 will handle DDThd when the player first decodes it and converts it to PCM. All HDMI HDDVD players do this now. (read: not the 360)

Current BluRay players do not have the internal decoders to do so. the only BD player currently available that has HDMI 1.3 is the PS3. All other players are probably not going to do anything with a TrueHD soundtrack and will instead play the DD track if PCM is not available on that disc.

An HDMI 1.3 BluRay player would send the compressed TrueHD stream to the reciever for decoding. But now you must own a 1.3 reciever, that has the TrueHD decoder in it, and since the DTSMA and DTSHD decoder is still not finalized, you can bet that any current reciever will at best need a firmware upgrade, and at worst be useless.

[Herry Dunston]

Well, both the receiver and the Blu-ray player are connected with an HDMI cable (v 1.2 I suppose), if this tidbit helps finding the answer.

What's wrong with the reciever, wifeB8?

[wifeB8]

wifeB8, can HDMI 1.1 handle TrueHD, DTS-HD? Or is 1.3 required for that?
Please look at HDMI 1.3 – 4th bullet.
HDMI 1.3 allows for passing of TrueHD and DTS-MA, but uncompressed PCM has been available since HDMI 1.1 even though it says all HDMI is capable of passing uncompressed PCM , I don’t believe the original spec allowed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#HDMI_1.1
..............
Current BluRay players do not have the internal decoders to do so. the only BD player currently available that has HDMI 1.3 is the PS3. All other players are probably not going to do anything with a TrueHD soundtrack and will instead play the DD track if PCM is not available on that disc

DD Plus, and lossless formats like TrueHD and DTS-MA are player optional on BD players. When BD players start to be released with this ability, and/or AVR’s have this ability I guess we will see BD titles with TrueHD tracks on them, although Fox Studio is already releasing titles with DTS-MA tracks no one can currently play them without being down rezz.

......What's wrong with the reciever.....?

What are you referring to?.......Are you not getting any sound? The first thing I would do is check to see if I can at least get the Dolby 5.1 track out with HDMI……Have you enabled the HDMI audio via BD player?

[gparris]

I had to enable my Denon AVR to allow HDMI audio and video passthru using its settings, too, otherwise without at least a digital audio connection separate from HDMI you get no sound.
Denon AVRs are bit more difficult to setup, but not impossible, you just have to know where to go for HDMI enabling to get the uncompressed PCM decoded audio to your AVR and have the AVR know what to do with it.
The Denon AVR-2807 is an excellent unit and just take the time to set it up, okay?

[Herry Dunston]

So, I presume from the responses it's possible to get uncompressed 5.1 pcm with the two systems I mentioned.

I am just trying to get ahead with the knowledge when me and my pops get our first Blu-ray movie this tuesday, "The Prestige", so I just want to know how I should set up the receiver or blu-ray player to make sure getting PCM 5.1 is defininite. I'm pretty sure the blu-ray player is set up with the HDMI (at least from the audio settings)...not sure with the reciever, though.

[wifeB8]

As long as the lowest denominator in the chain is HDMI 1.1 compliant you will be able to get uncompressed PCM.

[Herry Dunston]

Okay, I've recently played "The Prestige" for the Blu-Ray player, and once I set-up the audio to play uncompressed 5.1, believing it won't play stereo sound...guess what, the receiver can only played the uncompressed audio in 2-channels, which is stereo.

Now, are you SURE the AVR2807 receiver can play uncompressed PCM 5.1, and that a HDMI connection is all I need? Do I need to set the option up for anything, BD player or receiver.


EDIT: Okay, I went to the audio options on the blu-ray player, and I set the audio output to "PCM" instead of "Bitstream." Once I played the movie again with the same uncompressed audio, I seem to finally get the whole 5.1 surround (and pretty loud as well). Did I do the right thing?

[wifeB8]

Good show. :overclap:
Sounds like you got the AVR and BD setup correctly. Enjoy.

BTW How is the PQ on Prestige? I'm thinking of picking it up this evening.

[Herry Dunston]

Don't thank me, thank my pops' friend who did the convoulted job of plugging in many ports going from one place to the other and vice versa, and configured the setup of both systems. All I did was mess with the options on the Blu-Ray player until something popped my interest.

Still, sweet! :D I manage to get the PCM 5.1 shebang. Funny, though, that the same guy who hooked up the system says it's not possible to get uncompressed PCM audio with the devices we got... well who's laughin' now? :rmoon2:


On the subject of "The Prestige", what did I think of the picture quality? Not bad...not bad at all. The look is clear, the lighting is good, and the details are solid. Then again, I'm being very picky of how I want to see perfect PQ, so "not bad" can mean "AMAZING" to people like you. Although, the HDTV I used to see this blu-ray movie can only output to 1080i resolution at max. I always wonder how better it looks at 1080p, but from what some of you are saying, the difference between the two resolutions is minor.

[wifeB8]

Tell your setup guy to visit these forums more often. ;)

Don’t get fooled by the 1080p marketing onslaught. You can get a better bang for the buck on a properly calibrated display. So I guess it’s the “Prestige” for tonights viewing experience.

[gparris]

Just got "The Prestige" tonight and look forward to playing it on my Panasonic BD player in PCM 5.1 with HDMI on a AVR I can use with HDMI, the Denon AVR-4306, not my Denon AVR-3805.
If I could sell my 3805, I would, if only to get that AVR-2807 like Herry Dunston has! :sightv:
My PS3 has optical out only, no analogue out and HDMI for HD and PCM, the AVR-3805 was made before these HDMI connections were around much.
I am sure these BDs will sound good enough, though, for now.
Glad Herry Dunston got it all hooked up right and used the full capability (using HDMI for audio and video) of his wonderful Denon AVR-2807. :D

[Herry Dunston]

Actually, the receiver isn't mine, in fact the whole home theater system belongs to the family, but thanks all the same. :thankyou3

I wondered if I should keep the audio output to "PCM" for all audio options, or should I switch back to "Bitstream" when I'm watching a film with dolby digital or DTS surround?


EDIT: Gparris, did you ever consider plugging the PS3 to the HTS with the hdmi-enabled AVR-4306, or do you think each HTS should have its own designated blu-ray player, regardless of some technological limitions? (what kind of person has THREE home theater systems? :confused: )

[wifeB8]

^
Also wondering the same thing since the your AVR 3805 has "multichannel analog in" you could pair it up with the Panny BD player which has "analog outs" and use the PS3 with it’s HDMI only connector to pair up with the AVR-4306. :headscrat

[gparris]

wifeB8,

Keeping a PS3 in your master bedroom suite (see the forum galllery for my setups) can get interesting, especially with an anxious nephew visiting. :whistle:
If my current HT furniture glass shelf can handle the weight of the HD-A1 AND the Panasonic BD player stacked on it, I may switch it out, instead.
(I don't know the weights of each item to total them up.)
Then, I could use the 7.1 outputs of the Panasonic BD player right into the 7.1 analogue inputs of the AVR-3805, ignoriing my HD-A1's outputs and use only the coaxial digital inputs for DD+ and so on using the Toshiba player.
I am migrating more to getting BD discs, anyway, now that the authoring has got as good as HD-DVDs.
The PS3 directly hooked up to the AVR-4306 on the shelf below the 70" LCD set, could work for uncompressed PCM, too, one cable for everything...thanks for thoughts!

[Herry Dunston]

It's nice that we got someone's quakky HT complication resolved.

Anyway, about my question about "PCM/Bitstream" from post #16...

[gparris]

Herry Dunston,

Keep the PCM for everything unless you you want your DD and DTS standard processing done by your AVR...see what "lights up" on your AVR's panel display and hear how it sounds to you.
My understanding of Bitstream is the decoding is done by the AVR and the PCM is done already by the BD player and going out uncompressed to be amplified by the AVR-only.
I have three HT setups because I am a HT consultant and can offer three setup types (and enjoy them in between with my family) for clients.
The house is on three levels, so each one is isolated by a floor level...thanks for asking. :D

[Herry Dunston]

Hold on a sec, gparris...you're sayin' the sound can be expressed by the blu-ray player rather than AVR? If that is possible, then I reckon I can listen to Dolby TrueHD if the Samsung BR player can actually decode that type of audio.

The AVR doesn't say anything about what's PCM or Dolby, it just says "Multi Channel Input" when set to PCM instead of Bitstream on the BD-P1000. The AVR is making use of all speakers, but should it matter that I like to know what kind of audio I'm listening to from the AVR display?

EDIT: Okay, something bothers me when I was testing the audio difference between PCM and Bitstream. Did anyone notice the PCM sounded quieter(less BOOMING) from the speakers than its Bitstream counterpart?...I know it's a bit late to make another edit.

[gparris]

Dolby TRUEHD is not yet available from any Blu-ray discs that I know of yet, only HD-DVD discs, but you can get lossless PCM sound from the HDMI connection so connected, though.
Any decoding is done at the player's end and sent PCM digitally from the player to the AVR using HDMI if you set it up that way.
The AVR panel then reads "EXT IN" instead of DTS or Dolby Digital and may or may not show the 5.1 boxes on the right side of the Denon panel (my Denon AVR-4306 does).
Samsung does not currently have software I know of that supports any advanced codec, unlike the Panasonic BD that supports PCM DTS (not Master, yet) and Dolby Digital Plus, it just sends the uncompressed DTS or Dolby Digital 5.1 bitstream to the amp to amplify.
You will get, however, the full 640kbps with HDMI for DD5.1 without restraints from the PCM, even if it is not Dolby Digital Plus (which is usually 1.5Mbps or better), too.
So keep your HDMI from your BD player hooked right into the AVR-2807 and the output for the HD video to the HDMI input of your HDTV, it is the best possible connection.
IMO, I find the HDMI connection much louder and clearer sounding than the optical or coaxial digital connections from my AVR-4306 setup.

[Herry Dunston]

Thanks for the explanation, though ultimately it doesn't answer my last question. Does the PCM audio sound softer, if only slight, compared to Bitstream audio?

[wifeB8]

Could very well be. Not all titles offer a matched db level when you compare PCM to DD/DTS tracks. Adjust your volume level to suit your needs.

[gparris]

^
Also wondering the same thing since the your AVR 3805 has "multichannel analog in" you could pair it up with the Panny BD player which has "analog outs" and use the PS3 with it’s HDMI only connector to pair up with the AVR-4306. :headscrat

I just hooked up the Panasonic BD player using all its 7.1 jacks and started using the EXT IN for audio on the AVR-3805 using analogue cables.
Honestly, I didn't think the sound would come out as good as it does with this setup.
The sound is much better, as in louder and clearer than the toslink optical when I switched back from PCM sound in comparison when I played "Black Hawk Down" for its surround-heavy effects.
Thank you for the input on this as I now use the PS3 with the Denon AVR-4306 using only HDMI for audio and HD picture...one cable for both vs. my 8 analogue for the 7.1 and one toslink plus the HDMI for picture...10 cables.
If I ever get another AVR for this setup I will get one with HDMI inputs as installing all those all those cables wasn't fun at all, but it was great to have a high def DVD player with 7.1 outputs.

[57U]

louder and clearer If someone is trying to sell a particular brand of loudspeaker, they will simply make them louder to the other brand in comparisons and the listener will almost always prefer the louder signal, even if it's not as clean.

So, be careful not to be drawn in simply by "loud". I'm not saying it's not better, but often the same happens when people listen to DTS instead of DD - the track is often louder and people often cannot tell a difference if the sound is actually equalized.

[gparris]

No, what I meant was that it seemed to go up a several dB in signal strength and the audio detail was more striking with more "presence".

Hope that clarifies what I was describing with lossless PCM audio.

I can hardly wait until more advanced codecs appear on the Blu-ray discs to try these out on this setup, like DD+ and DolbyTRUEHD as is planned. :)

[wifeB8]

The BD NIN disc has a TrueHD track on it. You can play the track with your PS3.
Any word when you might see Pannys firmware update for TrueHD support?

[gparris]

Nine Inch Nails?
IS this the ONLY BD in Dolby TRUEHD? :sightv:

[wifeB8]

Yes, the Nine Inch Nails music video. The release is supposed to have some of the best HD video for a music concert, and is one of the first examples of TrueHD on a BD.

[Herry Dunston]

I HAVE the NIN Blu-Ray disc...but to be honest, the way it's set up is baffling. The only audio choices I have on the disc is Dolby True HD or Dolby Stereo. There's nothing for Dolby Digital 5.1, the reason for the lack of that option is clearly explained on the "Beside You In Time" website, but how am I suppose to tell if the audio I'm listening to is Dolby Digital or Dolby True HD if the selection is one and the same?

Of course, with the equipment my family has, the system can only get Dolby Digital 5.1 regardless of the options set up on the Blu-Ray player, but once the player is upgraded to support Dolby True HD (or my pops buys a receiver that supports Hi-Def audio codecs), would I notice a diffence between the two?

I have to say it's a pretty dumb decision on whoever designed the Blu-Ray disc's menu.


EDIT: The sound is much better, as in louder and clearer than the toslink optical when I switched back from PCM sound in comparison when I played "Black Hawk Down" for its surround-heavy effects.


How strange you say that, since PCM sound made a quieter sound in my family's HTS.

[wifeB8]

The BD supposedly will default to the specific setting depending on what connector you are using. So it appears that you are at the mercy of who ever did the BD authoring to make sure this is being handled correctly.

Now to your question on how to tell if you are playing the TrueHD track? If you do not trust your hearing, and need some sort of visible validation given what we have to work with at present. On HDDVD's I would go back into the audio menu to check to see if TrueHD is selected once the disc has started playing. Also, depending on your AVR display option you might want to look to see if it is displaying some sort of PCM information on it.

On HDVD players the player decodes the TrueHD track, and remixes it into multichannel PCM at the receiver end so that it can be played on today’s AVR’s either by analog in or HDMI.

Look at the below link and you will get a better understanding
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/AVRs/trueHD_avrs_2.html

This is true for HDDVD players. I will assume it holds true for the PS3 with the following observation. The only thing that I have seen regarding this is a spec imprinted on the PS3 shipping box, and since I do not have an HDMI equipped receiver I can not verify this on the PS3 side.

[Kal Rubinson]

Nine Inch Nails?
IS this the ONLY BD in Dolby TRUEHD? :sightv:Nope. There is also the Legends of Jazz disc.

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?id=234

Kal

[Herry Dunston]

The BD supposedly will default to the specific setting depending on what connector you are using. So it appears that you are at the mercy of who ever did the BD authoring to make sure this is being handled correctly.

Now to your question on how to tell if you are playing the TrueHD track? If you do not trust your hearing, and need some sort of visible validation given what we have to work with at present. On HDDVD's I would go back into the audio menu to check to see if TrueHD is selected once the disc has started playing. Also, depending on your AVR display option you might want to look to see if it is displaying some sort of PCM information on it.

That doesn't help me much. When the player's audio setup is PCM, no matter what audio I choose from the disc, the AVR will always be displayed as "Multi Channel input"...except when the disc is playing in stereo, in which the AVR will display that info.

[wifeB8]

You know your point is moot since your player is unable to decode TrueHD.
Not a single 1st gen BD stand-alone player can decode TrueHD as of now.

The reference I made in my post was concerning HDDVD players, and or the PS3. The PS3 can also be made to display audio information while the disc is playing.

And before you ask. The Sammy BD player that you have has hardware limitations that will prevent it from decoding TrueHD on its own. You need a physical decoder capable of this. So far the only 1st gen BD player that might be able to do this is the Panasonic since it has been reported to have the necessary decoders to accomplish this. Time will tell if Panasonic will release firmware to make this possible.

You will have to upgrade your hardware to take advantage of TrueHD in your case.

[Herry Dunston]

:( Eh, I forgot you made that point on the quote.

[wifeB8]

Henry,

I want to point out one more dirty little secret that might present itself in the future with these current BD players. The discs are being authored in what is referred to as advance content mode, or a least a good majority of them should be to take advantage of the next gen technology.
Some of these advanced features will make use of various audio mixing techniques. These features can’t be implemented until the audio is decoded irregardless of whether the feature is being access on the disc. Thus the decoding needs to happen in the player as opposed to the receiver to take advantage of this.
So it might not be as simple as just upgrading the hardware at the receivers end to be able to decode these audio formats without some compromise, or loss of features. It looks more and more like you want a player that has this decoders built in as opposed to relying on the AVR receiver doing the decoding.

Just some food for thought ;)

[Herry Dunston]

:sightv: It's HERRY, by the way, not Henry.

Yea, I find it a good thing that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players are becoming reliant in their own decoding process rather than let the AVR do it for them. I just wish the Samsung would tell the different. I mean, on the info, it never says if it's dolby digital or PCM, it just says "ENG 5.1."

[wifeB8]

Sorry Herry, at least you seem to be taking note. :D