Box in a box?

[sgietz]

Hey there,

Just wondering about the more and more prolific "box in a box" programming. You can see it mostly on History, National Geographic, Science Channel and most newer shows.

Now, the shows are advertised as HD and they certainly do look pretty clear, but the only way to get them to fill the whole screen, is to zoom in, which introduces those pesky little artifacts. Kind of defeats the purpose, won't you agree?

Is there a reason why this method is employed? Does it have to do with compatibility with 4:3 TV's? Why not just show the program in true 16:9 aspect? True, regular TV's will show the black bars, but if anything, that should motivate people to start buying HDTV's.

By the way, how does this look on a 4:3 TV? My puny little brain tells me that there should be bars, as well. I don't get it. :headscrat

[kevinw]

I only see it happening when it is a 16:9 program broadcast in 4:3 on a non HD Channel.

[sgietz]

Perhaps that's it. It may not be HD, just widescreen. But what's the point? I guess I'm asking about the technical aspect. What is the purpose of formatting the picture in such an odd way?

[kevinw]

The original source material is 16:9 being broadcast on a 4:3 station and your watching on a 16:9 tv. If you watched it on a 4:3 TV then it would be a letterboxed program. They could crop the sides and make the source 4:3. Then you would be missing part of the picture but watching with only 1 set of bars using a 16:9 tv or none on a 4:3 tv. Id rather have all the picture myself.

[57U]

Please read the HDTV FAQ "Black Bars" for additional information on the subject.

[Crazybob]

Is your HDTV a 4:3 or 16:9 type screen? I have a 4:3 HDTV & get the box in a box look when an HD channel is broadcasting 4:3. I either zoom in or switch to the channels SD station & switch to 4:3 on the TV. I think they format it that way is because the program was originally made for 4:3 TV.

Bob

[kevinw]

I think they format it that way is because the program was originally made for 4:3 TV.

Bob
No the original programming is widescreen. It can be shown in HD when broadcast in HD. If you not watching a HD channel then boxing occurs on all sides. Also it is letterboxed when watching on a 4:3 TV

[sgietz]

OK, we're getting closer to the answer, I think. If it's shot in widescreen and broadcast on a non-HD channel, it gives you the box in a box. That explains programs such as you see on National Geographic, which has a separate HD station, but also has to broadcast the same program on their non-HD channel (NG-HD is not available on our TWC :( ).

Explain this, if possible: Before we bought our HDTV, my wife watched shows on the WB (or did they change their name?). One show in particular was Girlfriends, and on our regular 21 inch, 4:3, standard-def TV, we had the "box in a box," not just the black bars. Keep in mind that we did NOT have a HDTV, nor did we have a HDTV cable box. It was the regular channel on basic cable. At the time we were perplexed and didn't know what it meant. Now, I see it's a formatting issue with HDTV, but the fact that it showed up with our regular TV on a regular channel still seems odd.

Maybe I'm just stuck on a trivial issue. I'm just wondering how that works and how long we have to deal with this crap (2009?).

[kevinw]

No known reason for it to happen. 4:3 TV will never have black bars on side from an analog signal.
This crap is until people no longer watch, Wizard of OZ, Gone With the Wind, Sienfeld reruns American Movie classics cetc..when the interest in old time programming is gone then you will not see side bars again..I venture to say around the year 2100 :whistle:

[Ratman]

... how long we have to deal with this crap (2009?).

2009 is the shutdown date of analog (over the air/antenna) broadcast to "Digital", not HD.

You may have to deal with "crap" for many years to come. ;)

[sgietz]

I wish I took a picture of it, but it did have the side bars on our regular TV.

As far as the "crap" part. Well, I understand that a century of 4:3 programming isn't going away anytime soon. I just wish it would be treated like legacy software. You can still use it if you have to on a backwards compatible type deal, but let's not work on it anymore :rofl2:

And I'm not so sure it will take that long. I don't remember too much drama when we moved from VHS to DVD. That happened fairly quickly and painless. An entire media became obsolete in a few short years.

Well, I dunno, but 10 years can be a long time and come with many changes. We'll see :)

PS: Hey, how about a Nick at Night for standard-def? :cheers:

[kevinw]

media is one thing but years of programming is not going to be canned until those that have an interest are dead. About the point when we have 200 years worth of programming to choose from. As long as people still buy The original tv series on DVD -like A- team or Starskey and Hutch and of course Star Trek you will have 4:3 programming.
Of course some things can be fixed. Look at the sereies UFO from the 70's. It was 4:3 but they zoomed and cropped it to make it widescreen playable
http://ufoseries.com/hdtv/index.html

[Ratman]

An entire media became obsolete in a few short years.

Approx. 15 years... yet it still lives, expiring at a peaceful pace. ;)

Still a few DVD/VCR combo players available, right?

[MikeA]

Look at the sereies UFO from the 70's.

One of my favorites!

I wonder if my local cable provider will ever carry it in HD???!!!

[sgietz]

Yea, combos are available. And that's a good thing! The point I was trying to make is that everything (well, most) is geared toward DVD. Nothing will ever slip into non-existence. Heck, I still have about 1500 12-inchs in the garage from when I used to DJ a while back :rofl2:

I just like to see us phasing out the old 4:3 standard format and really cranking out the HD programming without making the old stuff obsolete. I couldn't live without STTNG, which was shot in 4:3. :)

This really comes down to TV shows, because most movies have been shot in widescreen pretty much since the beginning.

I propose this: All programming must be produced in 16:9, HD-def. I can speak from experience that you certainly can watch a HD show on a regular TV, for as long as you have some type of converter. When we had out HDTV in the shop, we hooked our small standard-def TV to the HD cable box and we could watch all the HD shows without any problems. Sure, we had the black bars, but that's the price we have to pay if we don't want to buy, or can't afford a HDTV.

That's the direction we should move into. Let's get some campaign money behind this :cheers:

[Ratman]

Sorry... but 4:3 (1.33:1 aspect ratio) will not go away. Perhaps someone may digitally remaster some "classic" movies, but don't assume that movies have been shot in widescreen "since the beginning". That's a false assumption.

Also consider all of those "classic" TV shows that many still watch over and over and over.... They will be around for a long, long time.

Bonanza, Twilight Zone, The Honeymooners, Lucy (all incarnations)... and many others.

Consider the "outrage" a few years ago when Turner thought he was doing a good/innovative thing by "colorizing" classic B&W movies and TV shows. There was outrage by the majority and he no longer does this AFAIK. Why? He lost money...

[Rick-F]

My cable company does NOT carry National Geographic (History channel and others) in HD. It is obvious that a lot of content is in in HD-- but I do not get it; I get the 16:9 image filling the 4:3 area of my screen-- with black bars at top and sides. (The black bars at the top are do to the "letterbox"-- and the bars at the side are do to the fact that I am getting an SD (4:3) signal that does not fill the screen in the horizontal direction. A lot newer commericals on HD channels look like this . . . -- this way SD and HD viewers see the same image, albeit in a different size.)

I can "zoom" the image to fill the screen, but this reduces picture quality some. I have noticed that some of the source material is so good (even in SD), that the zoomed image is still very watchable. I'm sure that someday when Insight carries NGC in HD, I will see that PQ rivels that of the Discovery HD cannel