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robmx

04-03-2002, 12:38 PM

Reasons you should not buy any current Digital HDTV reciever.

One, they are overpriced. Digital receivers in the rest of the world cost as little as $109.00 We are being ripped off by the monopolist who have rigged the system so that only in the US are we expected to pay exhorbitant prices for recievers so that special interest can charge hundreds of dollars more for receivers.

Two, they are changing the 8-VSB modulation that we use in the US to a new "better" version. The recievers now being sold will not work with the "robust" channel that this new version has. This new version is due to be unveiled any time. If you must buy a receiver now try to get a guarantee that it will work with any new standard for the nest two years or don't buy it.

Three, current receivers do not work well in the presence of multipath, both fixed and dynamic. Even if your neighbor get good reception don't assume you will. Even trees will interfere if the wind is blowing. Airplanes and traffic can cause dynamic multipath. Many users of current HDTV digital receivers actually have to watch their favorit programs on their analog sets if they want to follow the story because of audio and video dropoouts caused by multipath. With a digital signal you do not get a degraded snowy image like with analog, with digital you get nothing. The new version of the 8-VSB modulation will supposedly solve some of this. It will not be used in a receiver you can buy for at least 18 months. It has not been even approved yet.

Four, you should not buy a current overpriced 8-VSB reciever because soon you will see digital TV that will work with your current analog TV using a $100 receiver. You will not have to buy an HDTV monitor right away to get much of the benefit of digital. The $100 reciever will work with your HDTV monitor, however, when you decide to buy it. There is an auction scheduled for June 19th that will allow for many TV stations to begin broadcasting using a different modulation system, COFDM, that will not have any problems with multipath and works with very inexpensive receivers. The COFDM receivers work with simple antennas like those on cell phones. You will not have to put a monstrous Yagii antenna on your roof. In fact the COFDM reciever will work easily in your back yard, on your boat, in your motor home or the back seat of your SUV even while driving at the speed limit.

Five, do not buy a current overpriced digital reciever because you are encouraging the special interest lobbyist in Washington who regularly rip us off and buy our government as they have done in this case.

Six, even on the stations that currently use the 8-VSB modulation there is a good chance that it will be abandoned in favor of the much more modern COFDM at any time. This is especially true after COFDM starts to be used on some channels. Once the two modulations can be compared side by side there is no way that the current modulation, 8-VSB, can survive.

Bob Miller

DTC mac

04-03-2002, 12:57 PM

No sorry wrong answer. ATSC and 8VSB is here to stay. COFDM "MAY" become available as a minority service should its backers win the FCC 700 MHz lowband auction, by no means a certainty. ATSC/8VSB is the US standard for TV transmission for any forseeable future. The 700 MHz auctions are far more likely to be awarded to wireless data services than to any TV group.

robmx

04-03-2002, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by DTC mac
No sorry wrong answer. ATSC and 8VSB is here to stay. COFDM "MAY" become available as a minority service should its backers win the FCC 700 MHz lowband auction, by no means a certainty. ATSC/8VSB is the US standard for TV transmission for any forseeable future. The 700 MHz auctions are far more likely to be awarded to wireless data services than to any TV group.

That is a good one. ATSC is being deserted by some of their best members. The DVB group is on the ascendant. DVB had mature working standards for satellite, cable and terrestrial. DVB-T equals COFDM. ATSC has become a joke.

If you want to read an apology of its current condition by its chaiman read this.

Subject: The ATSC – From the Inside
From: Phil Livingston, Chairman, ATSC
ATSC Background:
In the past, the Advanced Television Systems
Committee (ATSC) had two objectives or missions: the on- going work of DTV standardization and the promotion of the ATSC Standard in the Americas and beyond. (This last staement is followed below by weak answers to two major criticisms leveled at ATSC today, ONE Why are we still trying to fix 8-VSB when it was supposed to work just fine two years ago? --I have the press releases,-- and TWO Why is the ATSC spending/wasting so much money trying to sell 8-VSB overseas AND LOSING EVERY TIME -Taiwan, Australia, Brazil, Hong Kong, etc. with Canada and Mexico up to the plate) Both of these may seem unusual since
many people assume the standards work is “done” (after all we’re transmitting DTV using ATSC 8-VSB) and others wonder why would we want to influence “the rest of the world.”

To address the first part, let me say that
while many think the ATSC standardization process is finished, the inherent nature of digital technology fosters new applications and the need for new technical standards. Our continuing work in data broadcasting and the work needed to answer the dynamics of implementation are good examples. One only has to look at a body like SMPTE or SCTE to realize that technical standardization is an on-going
process.

The answer to the second is that we would
of course like to have neighbors like Canada and Mexico utilize the same system, as well as to respond to the desire of manufacturers for “mass markets” with common systems.

However, these are rather divergent tasks, so in November of last year (2001) the Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC) announced the creation of a new affiliated organization named the “ATSC Forum” to promote digital television and the adoption of the ATSC DTV Standard. Concurrently the ATSC membership began a process to approve incorporation as the Advanced Television Systems Committee, Inc., including replacement of the Executive Committee
with a Board of Directors consisting of employees or officers of ATSC member organizations. Former ATSC Chairman Robert Graves now heads the ATSC Forum, and Mark Richer, previously ATSC Executive Director, now serves as President of ATSC, Inc. In January
the Board of Directors elected Phil Livingston of Panasonic Broadcast to be voluntary, part- time Chairman for 2002. Lynn Claudy, NAB Senior Vice President, Science and Technology, and Jay Adrick,
Harris Vice President, Strategic Business Development were elected to serve as Vice Chairmen from among the members of the newly constituted Board of Directors. As has been said elsewhere, this approach
strengthens two major aspects of the ATSC’s mission by further increasing the focus on standards activities within the ATSC itself and by creating an affiliated organization for international education activities
and standards advocacy. When asked how a “manufacturing guy” got elected chairman, I’d say I feel like a broadcaster since I got my “First Phone” in 1961 to work as a radio station chief engineer,
and I’ve been involved in the work of ATSC since 1987.

I’d also add it’s an honor and privilege. I see my role as working with the Board of Directors and President, Mark Richer, to expand the role of ATSC as a forum to discuss and hopefully resolve issues among industry segments. It may not be well known, but the ATSC has
a wonderfully diverse membership comprised of the broadcast, cable, satellite, motion picture, computer, consumer electronics, and semiconductor industries. Some people have asked if the ATSC will be different, and I think the answer is yes, but not because of anything I might do, but because the division into the ATSC Inc. and the ATSC Forum will focus our energies, our modest resources, and our constituents
enthusiasm according to our different missions. As a membership based organization we need to demonstrate our value and relevance to both present and prospective members to assure that we remain
useful and productive.

The other question I hear is “Has ATSC lost its clout?” My answer is that we have work to do and a role
to play for which we are the most appropriate forum. While the ATSC continues to have a strong, diverse membership, the current economic environment has caused loyal participants to make tough decisions and we’ve lost some valuable members. I wish that were
not the situation and we‘ll have to work to find more ways to earn their ATSC participation."

END

A statement obviously trying to answer questions about why the ATSC is in failure mode, its members quiting, its standard 8-VSB a joke. Its prosletizing of 8-VSB ridiculous. Recently they tried to buy off Brazil by offering them a lower royalty for 8-VSB thereby making US consumers subsidize Brazilian consumers.

It is embarrassing that this supposedly engineering based standards body has been taken over by bean counters and lawyers with little participation by broadcasters and allowed to foist such garbage as 8-VSB off on a country such as the US. [/SIZE]

robmx

04-03-2002, 02:38 PM

DTC mac

04-03-2002, 06:44 PM

Well in six to ten years perhaps you may be in my position attempting to justify CODFM as opposed to who knows what. The point is that if ATSC/8VSB is overthrown then there NEVER will be a standard.

NTSC was never the best sytem in the world but it did the job as ATSC does today. Trashing the agreed standard only makes precedent to change systems every few years. I for one do not see the economy of replacing broadcast and receiving equiptment every few years just to satisfy a few grumblers who prefer CODFM.

Take historical precedent. VHS inferior to Beta became standard. NTSC inferior to PAL/SECAM became standard. the infrastructure for ATSC/8VSB is in place no matter how much better CODFM may ( and I have my doubts ) be. It is to late for CODFM to become the standard.

As for CODFM being the pancea for digital TV, where might I ask is HD in europe? No where to be found. Do not try to scare HD enthusiasts into beliving that CODFM will make widespread HD a reality as it won't.

robmx

04-04-2002, 01:51 AM

I have never been in the modulation trashing business. If something came along better than COFDM you would not find be trying to support COFDM. I am not in love with it.

I disagree that if the ATSC standard is overthrown then there will never be a standard. ATSC/8-VSB has been overthrown in Taiwan and Australia. They now have another standard, COFDM DVB-T. I get emails from broadcasters in Korea wishing me well on overthrowing 8-VSB because it will help them get it overthrown in Korea. THEY HATE IT! No true broadcaster in the world likes 8-VSB. The only reason US broadcasters agreed to it was because they were threatened with the loss of their spectrum if they voted for COFDM. They were threatened with the denial of must carry for their entire 6MHz of digital content also (they were denied that anyway). It was easy for the broadcasters to go along with the special interest because they care very little about over the air broadcasting. It is just an electric bill to them that they must pay to qualify for must carry on cable.

IN ALL OTHER COUNTRIES ALL BROADCASTERS VOTED UNANIMOUSLY for COFDM whenever a vote has been taken.

8-VSB is not an "agreed on standard", it is a standard that has been formed by politicall committees in the process of dividing up special interest spoils. Lots of big bucks. The participants were not broadcasters and very little interest was given to either the technology or the best interest of the public.

But most importantly it will FAIL. It has no chance, it cannot be fixed to do a good enough job to satisfy any business plan that would allow OTA broadcasting to compete effectively with DBS, Cable, Fiber and the Internet over the next 30 years.

Where is HD in Europe? They tried it and went through what we are going through now. It didn't work so they scrapped it and did things right, DVB-T. DVB-T does handle HDTV and Sweden is about to try it I beleive.

There is a strong beleif in Europe that cable, satellite and fiber is the proper way to deliver HDTV in the future and will be to much competition for OTA broadcasting. Therefore they beleive that OTA spectrum should be used where cable satellite and fiber cannot go, mobile.

Germany is going to start in 2003 by turning off analog first in the area around Berlin. They will be the first country to turn off analog and only do terrestrial DTV. I expect them to be very successful.

COFDM will be come the standard in the US by default. The auction spectrum will be used with it and be very sucessfull. The 8-VSB spectrum will remain stagnant till it is either converted to COFDM or sold at auction.

COFDM is that much better! Why do you think the special interest went to so much trouble to kill it?

The DOD (Department of Defence) had a special dispensation from the FCC to test COFDM at Ground Zero last November in NYC. While this demonstration was going on the NYC Police Department wanted to see it also. The FCC would not let the NYPD see COFDM mobile. They instructed the broadcast station being used that they could not turn on the transmitter for the demo.

Originally posted by DTC mac
Well in six to ten years perhaps you may be in my position attempting to justify CODFM as opposed to who knows what. The point is that if ATSC/8VSB is overthrown then there NEVER will be a standard.

NTSC was never the best sytem in the world but it did the job as ATSC does today. Trashing the agreed standard only makes precedent to change systems every few years. I for one do not see the economy of replacing broadcast and receiving equiptment every few years just to satisfy a few grumblers who prefer CODFM.

Take historical precedent. VHS inferior to Beta became standard. NTSC inferior to PAL/SECAM became standard. the infrastructure for ATSC/8VSB is in place no matter how much better CODFM may ( and I have my doubts ) be. It is to late for CODFM to become the standard.

As for CODFM being the pancea for digital TV, where might I ask is HD in europe? No where to be found. Do not try to scare HD enthusiasts into beliving that CODFM will make widespread HD a reality as it won't.

hjriver

04-06-2002, 02:41 PM

Look's to me you have an interest in this. Not to mention conflict. The average tv viewer doesn't care what standard is used. They just want to turn it on and watch. All this chicken little bull may mean something 10 years or so down the road but right now the broadcasters are trying to get digital on the air. Get a life!

Originally posted by robmx
I have never been in the modulation trashing business. If something came along better than COFDM you would not find be trying to support COFDM. I am not in love with it.

I disagree that if the ATSC standard is overthrown then there will never be a standard. ATSC/8-VSB has been overthrown in Taiwan and Australia. They now have another standard, COFDM DVB-T. I get emails from broadcasters in Korea wishing me well on overthrowing 8-VSB because it will help them get it overthrown in Korea. THEY HATE IT! No true broadcaster in the world likes 8-VSB. The only reason US broadcasters agreed to it was because they were threatened with the loss of their spectrum if they voted for COFDM. They were threatened with the denial of must carry for their entire 6MHz of digital content also (they were denied that anyway). It was easy for the broadcasters to go along with the special interest because they care very little about over the air broadcasting. It is just an electric bill to them that they must pay to qualify for must carry on cable.

IN ALL OTHER COUNTRIES ALL BROADCASTERS VOTED UNANIMOUSLY for COFDM whenever a vote has been taken.

8-VSB is not an "agreed on standard", it is a standard that has been formed by politicall committees in the process of dividing up special interest spoils. Lots of big bucks. The participants were not broadcasters and very little interest was given to either the technology or the best interest of the public.

But most importantly it will FAIL. It has no chance, it cannot be fixed to do a good enough job to satisfy any business plan that would allow OTA broadcasting to compete effectively with DBS, Cable, Fiber and the Internet over the next 30 years.

Where is HD in Europe? They tried it and went through what we are going through now. It didn't work so they scrapped it and did things right, DVB-T. DVB-T does handle HDTV and Sweden is about to try it I beleive.

There is a strong beleif in Europe that cable, satellite and fiber is the proper way to deliver HDTV in the future and will be to much competition for OTA broadcasting. Therefore they beleive that OTA spectrum should be used where cable satellite and fiber cannot go, mobile.

Germany is going to start in 2003 by turning off analog first in the area around Berlin. They will be the first country to turn off analog and only do terrestrial DTV. I expect them to be very successful.

COFDM will be come the standard in the US by default. The auction spectrum will be used with it and be very sucessfull. The 8-VSB spectrum will remain stagnant till it is either converted to COFDM or sold at auction.

COFDM is that much better! Why do you think the special interest went to so much trouble to kill it?

The DOD (Department of Defence) had a special dispensation from the FCC to test COFDM at Ground Zero last November in NYC. While this demonstration was going on the NYC Police Department wanted to see it also. The FCC would not let the NYPD see COFDM mobile. They instructed the broadcast station being used that they could not turn on the transmitter for the demo.

robmx

04-06-2002, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by hjriver
Look's to me you have an interest in this. Not to mention conflict. The average tv viewer doesn't care what standard is used. They just want to turn it on and watch. All this chicken little bull may mean something 10 years or so down the road but right now the broadcasters are trying to get digital on the air. Get a life!

You are right the average viewer doesn't care what modulation is used they just want it to work. The current 8-VSB does not work. You can't jsut "turn it on and watch" as you say. In fact it is more like fiddle with it forever and spend a lot of time and money and maybe you will get something.

COFDM DVB-T allows for plug and play ease of use and reception. 8-VSB is nothing but trouble. All you have to do is look at the problems people are having with reception, with dynamic multipath and the much higher cost of 8-VSB receivers when compared to COFDM recievers.

Or look at the results of the test done by MSTV. They came to the conclusion that 8-VSB was "unacceptable" and "didn't replicate NTSC coverage" which was the MINIMUM requirement of a new digital modulation.

And your last statement that "broadcasters are trying to get digital on the air" is the biggest joke. Braodcasters have and are delaying the digital transition as much as they possibly can. In fact picking 8-VSB as the US modulation standard was just one of their delaying tactics. The broadcasters make money from programming that is carried on cable. By law cable MUST CARRY their NTSC programming.

In testifying before Congress it was VERY important for broadcasters to argue that over the air broadcasting DOESN"T work. That they MUST HAVE MUST CARRY. That argument would not have been persuasive if they adopted COFDM because with COFDM over the air broadcasting DOES work and they have no argument for MUST CARRY. In fact they have an advantage with broadcasting over the air. They have coverage even where cable cannot afford to go.

It is simple, they would lose revenue that they now receive if they lost MUST CARRY. All broadcasters know is MUST CARRY. They would do anything to keep it and they did. The MSTV modulation test were a fraud. A fraud for all the world to see. An embarrassing incredible example for the world to see how our political process has turned into a simple market run by the highest bidder with no regard to ethics, what is best for the public or even what is the best technology.

The one problem for those who commited this fraud is that 8-VSB is so bad that it will fail no matter what they do.

If you or anyone wants HDTV and the digital transition to succeed you will do some homework into the reality of this fraud and see that it is reversed as soon as possible.

Check these sites out...

COFDM DVB-T (http://www.dvb.org/search/index.html)
Mexico (http://web-star.com/hdtv/DVB-T20Mexico.html)
Australia (http://happy.emu.id.au/lab/lectures/)

hjriver

04-06-2002, 08:44 PM

I don't know what you mean "spend a lot of time and money and fiddle with it forever. You can just turn it on and watch. I've been doing that since November 2001. I live 47 miles from the nearest transmitter, have no problems whatsoever in receiving the digital and digital HD signals. Have not had to adjust my set since the initial set up of user preferences. I have a good ongoing relationship with the station engineers and assisted them when the antenna companies were tuning the antennas and transmitters. I get more weird signal problems from my Directv service. My OTA signals are excellent.
Something other is more than wrong with the signal standard when people pay thousands of dollars for a tv set and constantly have to "Fiddle" as you put it, or call in "experts" to try and adjust it, to get a half-way decent picture. By the way, I was in Best Buy the other night and none of the sets they had including the $7000 48" Philips Plasma flat screen had a good a picture as the direct view RCA F38310. They were all there, tuned to the same video source so apples were being compared to apples. If the projection sets were the only choice for digital, then I would just buy a flat screen sony direct view regular analog tv.
I think most of the problems is not the signal but the inherent limitations of the Big Screen Sets.

Originally posted by robmx

You are right the average viewer doesn't care what modulation is used they just want it to work. The current 8-VSB does not work. You can't jsut "turn it on and watch" as you say. In fact it is more like fiddle with it forever and spend a lot of time and money and maybe you will get something.

COFDM DVB-T allows for plug and play ease of use and reception. 8-VSB is nothing but trouble. All you have to do is look at the problems people are having with reception, with dynamic multipath and the much higher cost of 8-VSB receivers when compared to COFDM recievers.

Or look at the results of the test done by MSTV. They came to the conclusion that 8-VSB was "unacceptable" and "didn't replicate NTSC coverage" which was the MINIMUM requirement of a new digital modulation.

And your last statement that "broadcasters are trying to get digital on the air" is the biggest joke. Braodcasters have and are delaying the digital transition as much as they possibly can. In fact picking 8-VSB as the US modulation standard was just one of their delaying tactics. The broadcasters make money from programming that is carried on cable. By law cable MUST CARRY their NTSC programming.

In testifying before Congress it was VERY important for broadcasters to argue that over the air broadcasting DOESN"T work. That they MUST HAVE MUST CARRY. That argument would not have been persuasive if they adopted COFDM because with COFDM over the air broadcasting DOES work and they have no argument for MUST CARRY. In fact they have an advantage with broadcasting over the air. They have coverage even where cable cannot afford to go.

It is simple, they would lose revenue that they now receive if they lost MUST CARRY. All broadcasters know is MUST CARRY. They would do anything to keep it and they did. The MSTV modulation test were a fraud. A fraud for all the world to see. An embarrassing incredible example for the world to see how our political process has turned into a simple market run by the highest bidder with no regard to ethics, what is best for the public or even what is the best technology.

The one problem for those who commited this fraud is that 8-VSB is so bad that it will fail no matter what they do.

If you or anyone wants HDTV and the digital transition to succeed you will do some homework into the reality of this fraud and see that it is reversed as soon as possible.

Check these sites out...

COFDM DVB-T (http://www.dvb.org/search/index.html)
Mexico (http://web-star.com/hdtv/DVB-T20Mexico.html)
Australia (http://happy.emu.id.au/lab/lectures/) In fact it is more like fiddle with it forever and spend a lot of time and money and maybe you will get something.

robmx

04-06-2002, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by hjriver
I don't know what you mean "spend a lot of time and money and fiddle with it forever. You can just turn it on and watch. I've been doing that since November 2001. I live 47 miles from the nearest transmitter, have no problems whatsoever in receiving the digital and digital HD signals.

You can turn it on and watch however in the cities where most of us live reception is a problem. Even when you can get decent reception drop outs caused by intermitent dynamic multipath caused by moving things like trees, traffic, planes and people can make watching a program impossible.

Long term cable, satellite, fiber and the Internet are going to take the last 13.7% of households that still rely on over the air broadcast. Broaadcasters can not survive against such competition unless they can be easily received both fixed and mobile. Mobile is the one thing that cable, satellite and fiber cannot so.

tonov12

04-10-2002, 11:15 AM

I have to agree with Rob on this one. As a person who doesn't have the luxury of living with 50 miles of a broadcast point, I completely understand how the OTA is lacking. I can't receive any signals whatsoever! I have DirecTv and the only HD content I get to enjoy are the HDnet and HDHBO. Believe me, that isn't enough to satisfy my HD needs! If there's a way to improve reception in "rural" America, then I'm all for it.

DTC mac

04-10-2002, 11:31 AM

I dont understand why those who only just barely get analog signals must gripe about the inability to receive digital. You have made a choice to live where you do. No one ever promised your signal would improve. Your hopes for better reception are that the current standard ( ATSC/8VSB ) is rapidly deployed so that broadcasters can turn their attention ( and $$ ) to setting up low power DTV translators to better serve outlying areas of their markets.

robmx

04-10-2002, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by DTC mac
I dont understand why those who only just barely get analog signals must gripe about the inability to receive digital. You have made a choice to live where you do. No one ever promised your signal would improve. Your hopes for better reception are that the current standard ( ATSC/8VSB ) is rapidly deployed so that broadcasters can turn their attention ( and $$ ) to setting up low power DTV translators to better serve outlying areas of their markets.

What garbage! No one ever promised good reception? Actually they did. The prime movers in pushing 8-VSB have specifically promised very good reception. Zenith and Nextwave both have stated many time and with this particular PR release that they had/ have solved the problems of indoor and mobile reception.

August 1999
"Langhorne, PA, --- NxtWave Communications Inc., (nxtwavecomm.com) a developer of broadband communications integrated circuits (ICs), today introduced the first multimode VSB/QAM receiver chip that delivers error-free indoor and mobile reception of broadcast digital signals to digital televisions (DTVs), PCs and digital set-top boxes. Designated the NXT2000, the physical layer (PHY) device overcomes static and dynamic multipath interference typical in broadcast transmissions and provides the highest reliability and performance available."

The ability to do this is availabe. They went to great lengths to thwart the adoption of a modulation that would allow for EASY reception of HDTV in your home. They outright lied (above) and then participated in the great MSTV test that was an outright fraud.

Now we are stuck with a modulation that they are still working on and which still doesn't work. It is only being used in the US and S. Korea and cuts us off from the economies of scale that has already reduced DVB-T recievers to $240 for HDTV and $109 for SDTV in Europe and Australia.

No one has come up with an 8-VSB receiver yet that will just allow SDTV and EDTV to be received for the current analog TV sets that predominate in the US.

And you have the nerve to tell the majority of Americans that live in the major cities and in rural areas where 8-VSB doesn't work that they made a choice that denies them reception over the spectrum that belongs to them because some special interest want to have a monopoly and overcharge them for Intellectual Property and defective receivers.

Well the public is not going to buy it and they are not buying.

As to repeaters or translator stations, there are not enough of them to allow the rebroadcast of DTV stations. That is another reason that COFDM DVB-T, a modern well thought out and engineered modulation should be used. It does not require repeaters. It can rebroadcast "on-channel", something 8-VSB will never do. Using COFDM DVB-T would free up the 5000 stations now used as repeaters or translators for other uses or original programming.

Bob Miller

DTC mac

04-13-2002, 03:01 PM

To clarify, those with grade C reception were never promised improved reception. As for 8VSB not being able to do translators on the same frequency, who cares, PSIP handles remapping if broadcasters choose to use it. Regardless of your opinions COFDM will not eleiminate the market for cable based reception in vast areas of the US.

robmx

04-14-2002, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by DTC mac
To clarify, those with grade C reception were never promised improved reception. As for 8VSB not being able to do translators on the same frequency, who cares, PSIP handles remapping if broadcasters choose to use it. Regardless of your opinions COFDM will not eleiminate the market for cable based reception in vast areas of the US.

Cable will be on the ropes in five years or less from a combination of satellite and terrestrial dataservices. In fact satellite will most likely team up with terrestrial datacasters using COFDM. A major cable company in the UK is in trouble already from satellite competion. Kirsch in Germany is going under. The cable people are ripe for a fall.

OTA done right there is NO business plan that says cable works. Its over. Cable got started as an expensive fix for analog TV's reception problems. Those problems go away with COFDM and a SFN.

COFDM using SFNs will cover the US.

The insanity of the old legasy thinking still persist in the archaic broadcast industry. There are plans to build a new tower in NYC for $200 million dollars. And SFN that would work far better could be built for far less and lower power cost.

Bob Miller

DTC mac

04-15-2002, 11:25 AM

I really dont know what your "agenda" is robmx, but belive what you will, we know better than to be alarmed by your delusions.

robmx

04-15-2002, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by DTC mac
I really dont know what your "agenda" is robmx, but belive what you will, we know better than to be alarmed by your delusions.

If rational thinking wins instead of crony capitalism and special interest, if the best technology forces the worst out of business, if this lowers cost and allows more people to receive OTA broadcating over their spectrum, WHAT IS TO BE ALARMED ABOUT?

What are you afraid of? Lower receiver prices? Easier reception? COFDM is now legal in the US on TV stations 52 through 58 if you pay the auction price.

Even after paying for the spectrum the use of COFDM will quickly kill 8-VSB if it is as good as I know it to be. All you have to do is wait and see who has the delusions.

Bob Miller

ZeroDegreeK

04-16-2002, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by robmx

If rational thinking wins instead of crony capitalism and special interest, if the best technology forces the worst out of business, if this lowers cost and allows more people to receive OTA broadcating over their spectrum, WHAT IS TO BE ALARMED ABOUT?

Bob Miller

Since when does the best technology win simply because it is the best technology? Beta? Apple Computer? PAL? In America, this has never been the case. Companies that spent money developing inferior technology have an interest in seeing that technology prevail, even at the expence of advancement. The best technology won't win, the loudest mouth will.

I also disagree about cable being gone in 5 years. Cable has too strong a foothold. It will be here for a long, long time.

I honestly don't care which standard wins, because in a few short months after a standard is implemented, a newer, better technology will come out. This time it might only take 50 years to change. I can understand how you want the best one that is available NOW, but the argument will be moot when an even better technology is released. Then you can argue about why don't we use this technology.

robmx

04-16-2002, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by ZeroDegreeK

Since when does the best technology win simply because it is the best technology? Beta? Apple Computer? PAL? In America, this has never been the case. Companies that spent money developing inferior technology have an interest in seeing that technology prevail, even at the expence of advancement. The best technology won't win, the loudest mouth will.

I also disagree about cable being gone in 5 years. Cable has too strong a foothold. It will be here for a long, long time.

I honestly don't care which standard wins, because in a few short months after a standard is implemented, a newer, better technology will come out. This time it might only take 50 years to change. I can understand how you want the best one that is available NOW, but the argument will be moot when an even better technology is released. Then you can argue about why don't we use this technology.

Didn't say COFDM would win just because it was the best technology. By the way it has won in the rest of the world. In other words 8-VSB has lost in the rest of the world. COFDM will win in the US because it will compete in the US. It is already being used on TV spectrum in the MMDS 2.4 GHz area and will be used in the 700 MHz spectrum which is center stage UHF.

It will win because it will compete using lower priced plug and play receivers that work now with omnidirectional 6 inch antennas not in 2005 or 2006.

Bob Miller

dustdevil19

05-01-2002, 05:13 AM

That is a good one. ATSC is being deserted by some of their best members. The DVB group is on the ascendant. DVB had mature working standards for satellite, cable and terrestrial. DVB-T equals COFDM. ATSC has become a joke.
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Isn't the digital standard in this country MPEG2/Digicipher?
I thought this was a seperate entity from the DVB group.
Cable went with GI's system, and isn't Directv a modified version of the same thing?

You have good points regarding interference. I do get cut out from time to time while watching 1 of a whopping 2 programs available OTA here in Phoenix. Still, that's no reason to wait for something that may or may not change in the future. I paid 3k for a damn TV, I might as well spend a little more to enjoy it now, otherwise its only good for DVD's. HDTV is still a hobby, and it will continue to be until more stations start broadcasting. If they change formats I'll be mad, but at least I got some use out of my reciever and TV. Hopefully they'll offer some trade in value for the obsolete reciever.

robmx

05-01-2002, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by dustdevil19
That is a good one. ATSC is being deserted by some of their best members. The DVB group is on the ascendant. DVB had mature working standards for satellite, cable and terrestrial. DVB-T equals COFDM. ATSC has become a joke.
==============================================

Isn't the digital standard in this country MPEG2/Digicipher?
I thought this was a seperate entity from the DVB group.
Cable went with GI's system, and isn't Directv a modified version of the same thing?

You have good points regarding interference. I do get cut out from time to time while watching 1 of a whopping 2 programs available OTA here in Phoenix. Still, that's no reason to wait for something that may or may not change in the future. I paid 3k for a damn TV, I might as well spend a little more to enjoy it now, otherwise its only good for DVD's. HDTV is still a hobby, and it will continue to be until more stations start broadcasting. If they change formats I'll be mad, but at least I got some use out of my reciever and TV. Hopefully they'll offer some trade in value for the obsolete reciever.

Hey we are stuck for the moment with 8-VSB. If you want to buy a receiver and can afford it why not. I just want to make sure you know what is being done to you and what they plan on doing in the near future.

Any reciever you buy now will be incapable of HDTV for a number of reasons. One being the change they are proposing in the 8-VSB standard and the other the DVI issue. By the time you have any real HDTV in Phoenix your reciever will be obselete. I doubt if they will give a real credit for it.

Bob Miller

Bob Miller

fredsd

05-01-2002, 04:12 PM

simply reading all forums on hdtv there is way too much money left over in the genneral public for them not to want such a product that cannot comply for 1 month straight..shut down commercialism once and for all turn off your tv sets fellow americans