?? re: DVI vs. component

[gtodd01]

If anyone could help me out with this question, it would be much appreciated.

I bought a Sony 57 widescreen that has a DVI connection. Is there a huge difference between using the DVI connection vs. using the composite connection? I have a decision to make re: which HDTV receiver to get.... A huges directv receiver which has component input or a Sony DirecTV receiver which has the DVI connection (but is about $210 more expensive). Advice would be greatly appreciated.

[57U]

People have reported back that there is either no difference or a slight difference, probably dependent on the equipment used.

[aj327]

By the way, you probably just misspoke but there's a BIG difference between composite and component.

I've never compared them side by side myself, but I've heard that the DVI connection is noticably (but slightly so) better than the component connection...and is especially handy if you want to hook your PC up to you tv...and quite necessary when HDDVD players come out.

But as far as spending 210 more dollars to get it for you receiver....given my budget, it wouldn't be worth it.

[kidslice]

If you have a PC that has a card that supports Video scan rates, than yes, DVI is good. But I have yet been able to find a card that satisfies this condition. In particular, the cards I have do not handle over scan and do not support 1080i.

Now with that said, DVI is only as good as the video processor in the device. HD is YCC. DVI is RGB. Thus the video processor must covert the YCC to RGB. The other aspect is, does the device convert the digital HD to analog prior to converting it back to digital RGB? No one is going to tell you this, but I would be willing to bet that some boxes are doing just this. Why? Because the DVI chipset is usually bolted on to the rest of the video processor, i.e., it is not a one-chip solution.

YPP vs DVI goes along with the debate that some people still believe that vinyl LPs still sound better than CDs. I have both and I cannot tell the difference between the two.

[proacman]

My Sony 50XBR800 has both component and DVI inputs. My Samsung T165 receiver has both outputs. On a variety of HD material, I could see no difference.

I have a Silicon Image Ultra Scan Line Doubler. It has VGA and DVI outputs. I convert the VGA to component. In this instance, the DVI input to my TV looks better.

What does the above mean? I have no idea. But, I do know that LPs sound better, in general, then CDs. But SACDs and DVD-Audio discs sound even better.

[kidslice]

"What does the above mean?"?? not sure what you are referring to, but i am going to assume that you a talking about my blurb at the end. The point was analog vs digital, what one is better. I say that it is subjective and based on the particular user. Just like you say that vinyl sounds better than CD. I say there is no difference. The same is true for DVI vs YPP. I again say that there is no difference, while I am sure that others will say that DVI is better because it is digital.

Does the SI USLD account for overscan? That is, do you get the entire PC desktop on you TV screen.

[prbeck]

I have to back proacman on the question of LP versis CD. The LP's have a much broader audio spectrum. If you put them on an oscillascope, LP's can range from subsonics to ultrasonics.

As to the DVI versus component, it seems to depend on what you are feeding it with.

[kidslice]

I am not arguing that from a technical standpoint analog has advantages. My point is that it is hard to hear a difference between a CD and an analog LP.

As far as DVI vs Component. Put 720p in and get 720p out. Visually compare DVI to YPP and tell me you see the difference.

Your best bet is 1394. Pass the MPEG-TS right to the receiver. Keep it pure digital as long as possible.

[jjmcgraw]

I have a 65" Sony and first owned the Hughes E86 and now the Sony HD200. I now use the DVI input with the Sony HD200. I also have my set of "component" cables hooked up as well. When I switch between the DVI and component video modes I cannot see any visual difference in quality. I also do not see any quality difference that I remember from the Hughes to the Sony. The main reason I stepped up to the Sony (and this may not justify the added cost for you) is that I wanted to free up one set of component connections by going with DVI and the bigger reason is I like the stretch modes of the Sony much better. The Hughes is very limited with the stretching and also resolution. There are many more options in the Sony. The Sony's software features and functions are a lot better also. The Sony HD200 also seems to do a better job of picking up my OTA local channels also (locked all of them in right away, where the Hughes had some problems). It also doesn't drop out as much as the Hughes did when the weather is real bad.

But as far a picture quality goes - between the two units I saw no difference and between DVI / component I see no difference. The Sony is a better unit in my opinion but the differences my not justify the cost for you.

Just my experience with both units. Take it with a grain of salt.

Good luck.

[Travelnman]

Here are my two cents based on using a Hitachi digital 53" 51G500 and a Sony HD200 reciever. Service through DirectTV using a Terk 3LNB HDTV dish. Stock Sony component & DVI cables.

First note using digital cable box the picture on the Hitachi looked pixelated..like an DiVx or MPEG4 type video on a PC. Switching to the DirectTV setup using either connection was simply night and day better than digital cable on the Hitachi, but only slightly better on my analog Sony 50" projection TV.

DVI:
Looks like watching a DVD on a quality PC computer. Picture very smooth with no evidence of noise. Bright, vivid, well saturated colors. On some non-HD broadcasts, albeit noisy, the picture looks like someone applied a little too much "smooth" effect in photoshop. Probably caused by digital processing cancelling noise. I haven't seen an HD broadcast yet as I only get the Total Choice channels, but once I get my outdoor antenna to grab WB and CBS in HD I post another comparison.

Component:
Brighter colors, borderline over saturation. Can still see the noise on non-HD broadcasts; especially when view 4:3 in expanded or 16:9 modes.

Using DVD with the composite cables (Spiderman) the picture quality was awesome; though the colors are a little more saturated for my tastes; but can be adjusted using TV settings.

I like DVI mode the best, especially since I run 4:3 shows in 16:9 format. Now the question is do I opt for $100 Moster cable over the oem DVI cable?

[57U]

Originally posted by Travelnman Now the question is do I opt for $100 Monster cable over the oem DVI cable? Thanks for the feedback. Although this statement is a bit of an over-simplification, with digital signals, they either get through, or they don't. The cost of the digital cable is therefore usually irrelevant. See the FAQ post on Cables/connections.

Give us some more feedback on DVI vs. Component when you have HD.

[Johnwa]

I agree...there should be almost no difference in digital cable quality.I say almost only because I have actually heard a difference in quality in digital audio cables.the introduction of jitter is noticable with digital audio but I am not sure of the exact effect on digital video.By the way I am a firm believer that LP is better than CD but SACD/DVD-A has certainly left me scratching my head a few times trying to pick a winner! Your probably just fine with the OEM cables .... let Monster sell that $100 cable to some rich non-enthusiast that just wants to brag about how much he spent on his "system".

[Cody]

Greetings all,

I just purchased an RCA Scenium D61W130 HDTV and a Sony HD-200 Directv STB. I am using the included 3m DVI cable for connection. Watching HD signals from Directv I get a perfectly fit picture on my screen when the STB is set to 480p. When I switch to 1080i I get a beautiful picture but an inch at the bottom of the screen is cut off and about 2-3 inches are cut off the left side of the screen. I tried the same test using the component cables and found that the picture is perfectly centered but I still lose about a half inch on the bottom...no biggie. This only happens in 1080i mode. I would appreciate any suggestions anyone might have. I read through the posts and couldn't find anything quite like this.

Thank you for your time.

Cody

[57U]

An HD image should perfectly fill your HDTV. Sounds like there is something amiss and you may need to call service.

Hang on for a few days to see if anyone else has any comments and to see if you can find anything in your operating manuals, etc.

Are there any "size settings" or anything like that on the Sony STB? I don't recall any issues like this before either.

[Cody]

I am very tempted to say that the problem is with the Sony HD-200. There is a channel add screen on the STB that has nothing to do with adjusting the pictrure, but what it does have is a small PIP of the channel that you want to add/delete/edit. In this PIP screen the image is cut off EXACTLY as it is on full screen. So it would be my guess that the TV is fine because it is simply displaying the image that it is being presented with. Any ideas as to the problem being the DVI cable. I am using the OEM 3m DVI from Sony. I would think that a digital signal would not have a problem as long as it is getting from A to B, and the picture is perfect on 480p. Also, I have heard that people have had problems with the sony software and that it was recently updated. My unit is running on software from January 2k3. Is this the most recent? If it is not could the new software possible address my issue?

Thank you for the quick response 57u...much appreciated.

[Near76]

I agree with everyone that there is very little difference in quality between DVI and component. To me the major drawback to DVI is that there are no A/V receivers out there that route DVI signals...does anyone know otherwise?

-Matt

[57U]

Originally posted by Near76 To me the major drawback to DVI is that there are no A/V receivers out there that route DVI signals...does anyone know otherwise? DVI switches are very expensive - several hundred dollars. I would expect high end receivers to have DVI switching added, much the same as component video switching was added several years ago.

DVI in receivers will probably not "trickle down" to affordable receivers for several years.

[jbravo1974]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but going with DVI saves you from using a component input. This was one of the reasons I did not go with the cheaper hughes and went with the Samsung which i was able to purchase for only a few $$ more. Both my component inputs are used up and would've had to go back to analog y/w/r. Just my $.02

[pradike]

Originally posted by Near76
I agree with everyone that there is very little difference in quality between DVI and component. To me the major drawback to DVI is that there are no A/V receivers out there that route DVI signals...does anyone know otherwise?

-Matt

Oh Contrare....

My Onkyo 989v2 unit has DVI, and the image/audio outputs are far superior with DVI over any other output - image quality, music, etc. is noticably better with a DLP Projector using DVI input as well - I have a true digital front to back (DVI output DirecTV as well)....and you sure can tell the difference, and so can the 30-35 people I've had over to see it in my theater.

The other issue is longievity. DVI is the technology at the root for near-term new hardware, as well as the nexct generation of PVR (personal video recorders). This should also be a strong consideration.

The only drawback to DVI (as of this time) is the limit to 15 feet of cable length without any "artifical" amplification. IN my case, this was not a factor.

[aj327]

I'd like to backpedal on the comment I made about the difference between compnonent and DVI being only slight. I think this depends a lot on the type of TV that you plan on getting. From what I can gather many if not nearly all the artifacts that people experience with the DLP sets can be avoided with DVI...especially the "clay faces/color banding" issue, temporal dithering, and just overall PQ. I'm not sure if it lessens the rainbow effect at all (I'm guessing that it doesn't), but if you've never seen the clay faces issue before - trust me, you want to avoid it at all costs.

If this applies to all rp HD sets, I couldn't say but my impression at this point is that if you can go DVI - do so. If you can't...well then try not to look back.

[aj327]

Oh and pradike - I've heard you can go 30 feet with DVI before need of amplification. This is just going on what someone else said, but it was a fairly reliable source. Just thought I'd throw it out there.

[pradike]

I've heard you can go 30 feet with DVI before need of amplification. This is just going on what someone else said, but it was a fairly reliable source. Just thought I'd throw it out there
Thanks for the info on the longer potential cable length. My Home Theater guys tell me 15' is the CEDIA standard for maximum length (guranteed positive results), but it may work at longer lengths up to 25' - without guaranteed results.

Using DVI only from end-to-end on my Theater (DirecTV, Samsung T160 Receiver, Onkyo V989v2 THX receiver, Marantz VP2 DLP Projector...I can attest to the fact that there are no dropouts, rainbows, or any other negative effects using DLP front projection ina fully DVI environment - just a fantastic picture. HDTV programming is awesome!

We actually tried component & all of the other 4 input options allowable by the projector, and none compared to DVI - there WAS a noticable difference, especially on HD programming.

I made the conscience decision to future proof my Theater by going the full DVI route. While I am temporarily sacrificing the ability to PVR record, I can live with that short term inconvenience. I paln to go either the HD DVD or D-VHS route within the next 6-12 months when that technology is fully exploited to use the DVI standarad as well.

In the meantime, I simply have to live with enjoying breath-taking images on my 100" screen and THX 7.1 surround.....I'll tough it out.

[aj327]

Correction: You're right - after more extensive researching I think the 15 foot estimate is closer to the truth.

[Ldogg]

Originally posted by Cody
Greetings all,

I just purchased an RCA Scenium D61W130 HDTV and a Sony HD-200 Directv STB. I am using the included 3m DVI cable for connection. Watching HD signals from Directv I get a perfectly fit picture on my screen when the STB is set to 480p. When I switch to 1080i I get a beautiful picture but an inch at the bottom of the screen is cut off and about 2-3 inches are cut off the left side of the screen. I tried the same test using the component cables and found that the picture is perfectly centered but I still lose about a half inch on the bottom...no biggie. This only happens in 1080i mode. I would appreciate any suggestions anyone might have. I read through the posts and couldn't find anything quite like this.

Thank you for your time.

Cody


I have a very similar issue....... I have The Sony SAT HD200 STB, and on my 65" Mitsu, I loose about a half inch on the bottom. This is the same for my OTA stations through the STB, but if I switch to my ANT DTV connection on my TV it looks perfectly fine. I have tried changing the format on the STB to no avail. At first I thought it was the tv, but after some troubleshooting, I have determined it to be the STB. I am going to place a call into sony today. I searched the web, and their site but didn't turn up anything. When did you buy your STB? I bougt mine about 3-4 weeks ago... maybe it's a batch issue? I'll let you know what I find out. Also I am running through Component cables, and the SW version is June 03.

[satanami69]

Ldogg,

I had something like that a while back before i got into and HDTV. It was a Motorola STB and in the Menu setting was a Screen Position selection. It had 4 arrows at the top, bottom, left and right. I had to move it down, because the top arrow was almost half gone. After that, I could see the entire picture again.

[Ldogg]

Unfortunatly there is nothing like that in the sony's menu. I called sony, and there solution was to turn it off for 5 minutes.... :rolleyes: I have run my Xbox, DVD, and ANT through the TV and the look fine. I am going to call mitsu today, and then exchange the STB. I have only had it for two weeks, so I am going to take it back to circuit city.

[irish1]

I just bought a Samsung HD 931 DVD player with DVI to mate with my Samsung 61" DLP. I was very skeptical about claims made that the PQ improved. After all, the PQ was awesome! After talking my local Fry's down in price and springing for the cables, I set it up tonight and could not believe my eyes! I would say that the picture quality rivals HD in every aspect. If you have a Samsung DLP and are skeptical like me---run, don't walk and get one of these players. You won't be sorry!

[aj327]

Originally posted by irish1
I just bought a Samsung HD 931 DVD player with DVI to mate with my Samsung 61" DLP. I was very skeptical about claims made that the PQ improved. After all, the PQ was awesome! After talking my local Fry's down in price and springing for the cables, I set it up tonight and could not believe my eyes! I would say that the picture quality rivals HD in every aspect. If you have a Samsung DLP and are skeptical like me---run, don't walk and get one of these players. You won't be sorry!


(As Eric Cartman) Sweeet!

[57U]

There have been similar reviews of the Bravo D1 and it's a lot cheaper.

This, of course, has nothing to do with the DVI connection itself, but rather the circuitry in the DVD player allowing an "almost HD" experience via the DVI connection. This "almost HD" is not "allowed" via the component cables.

[Ldogg]

Originally posted by Ldogg
Unfortunatly there is nothing like that in the sony's menu. I called sony, and there solution was to turn it off for 5 minutes.... :rolleyes: I have run my Xbox, DVD, and ANT through the TV and the look fine. I am going to call mitsu today, and then exchange the STB. I have only had it for two weeks, so I am going to take it back to circuit city.


Called mitsu, and they said it just needs to be calibrated (H) and (V). I have a tech coming out friday to resolve the issue.

[mikehbkwm]

Ldogg im thinking of calling Mits and seeing if a tech will come out and tweak the TV for free :D ... Was Mits customer service pretty easy to talk to or where they BUTTS about coming out to your house...............

[gatorboyee]

I'm trying to verify the DVI input on the 989...I actually viewed the inputs on Onkyo's website, couldn't find it. Where is it located?

[57U]

I don't believe that any A/V Receivers yet have DVI inputs/switching.

The link below says nothing about DVI.

http://ic.dealtime.com/xPF-Onkyo_TX_DS989

How did you come to believe that the 989 had DVI inputs?

[pradike]

Originally posted by gatorboyee
I'm trying to verify the DVI input on the 989...I actually viewed the inputs on Onkyo's website, couldn't find it. Where is it located?

I have the same receiver - excellent unit.

There is no DVI connector.

[spaceman_spiff]

DVI Inputs - One high end audio manufacturer has DVI inputs lined up for the near future.

TAG McLaren's new processor has plans for a DVI switching option as soon as second generation HDMI has been released.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_3/show-report-cedia2003-page-3.html
Scroll down to TAG McLaren.

[Zoetermeer]

why is it exactly that dvi improves picture quality so much better on DLP's than on CRT and RPTV's? This doesn't make any sense to me.

[57U]

The signal stays "digital" all the way to the display. CRT-based TVs are "analogue" therefore there is a Digital to Analogue conversion that's not required on fixed pixel displays.

Digital is not inherently better than analogue, but if done properly it can be better.

[namechamps]

Originally posted by Zoetermeer
why is it exactly that dvi improves picture quality so much better on DLP's than on CRT and RPTV's? This doesn't make any sense to me.

An HDTV using CRT tech is still an analog device. It is a high quality analog but still analog. A DLP, LCos, LCD, or plasma device has a fixed display pattern and is fully digital.

So with a DLP, LCOS, LCD or plasma there is never any digital to analog conversion.

Example (DVI)
Set Top Box (digital) - DVI (digital) DLP processer (digital)

Example (Component)
Set Top Box (digital) >>D/A Conversion>>component(analog)>>A/D Conversion>> DLP Processor (digital)

hence with DLP or any digital device you avoid 2 analog/digital conversion by using an all digital route (DVI or Firewire)

WITH A CRT You will need to convert to analog anyways

All DVI does it delay that conversion until signal reaches TV.
Example (DVI)
STB (DIGITAL) - DVI (DIGITAL) - **D/A** CRT TV (Analog)

Example DVI
STB (DIGITAL) **D/A ** Compoent (Analog) - CRT TV (analog)

So with DVI cable you use the TV's D/A. With Component you use the STB D/A. If you got a cheap D/A in TV and a good D/A in the STB then component COULD look better than DVI or vice versa

[57U]

Another somewhat important difference, that I mentioned in another post/thread, is that the "upconversion" done by the DVD player is done totally in the digital domain, while upconversion on component video feed would be based on analogue information.

As stated, a lot of this stuff is "theoretical" therefore the quality of the equipment is often much more important than whether it's digital or analogue.

DVI is not utilized in HDTVs to increase PQ. There are no such claims. DVI may be better than CV, but it also may not, depending on the quality of the various pieces of equipment.

[Zoetermeer]

I see, makes much more sense now. Thanks for the help.

It seems a little ridiculous that analog tv's even include a dvi input at all, aside from the fact that it's a good selling point.

[57U]

One reason that CRT-based TVs have DVI is because this will allow them to "tell" the STB that they are a TV and not a recording device. As such, the STB will send the signal so that you can watch the picture on the TV.

[Zoetermeer]

OT question for you 57U--

You seem to be one of the most knowledgeable people on the forum. If you had to choose between a 34" widescreen CRT, and a RPTV around 40-46", which would you go for (assuming that room size and similar considerations are irrelevant, decision is based entirely on quality). With an RPTV it seems like you can get a larger screen size, with the same options, as a smaller CRT. Are there dependability issues here? From what I've read, the better CRT's (such as the Sony XBR) are a pretty sure bet if you want a very good quality TV. With RPTV's, I see a lot of mixed reviews but looking at these TV's in stores the picture looks as good or better than the CRT's (not that that gives you an accurate assessment). The price difference in the two makes me suspicious of RPTV's, but I wonder if a Sony XBR is worth the 2 grand.

[57U]

Each person/family has different requirements. I have a 61" TV because I like large and have a fairly large room (I bought my first 50" TV in 1982). I could never be satisfied now with anything smaller, unless I had a room that made me be closer than 10'. At 8' I'd still want a 40+" TV, which rules out direct view because 1. they have edge effects at 40", 2. They are expensive, 3. they are very heavy/bulky. That's my opinion, however it may not be applicable to your situation.

See the FAQ's on "how large an HDTV to buy" & "types of HDTV". You need to make up your mind based on your needs/budget.

[namechamps]

Originally posted by Zoetermeer
It seems a little ridiculous that analog tv's even include a dvi input at all, aside from the fact that it's a good selling point.

The main reason CRT have DVI has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with fear. The mpaa fears HDTV component video. It is a high quality near flawless analog signal. They fear that it can be used to create high quality pirate masters, that could then be compressed and placed on dvd, or filesharing system.

With DVI they feel they can prevent this since DVI requires a secure point to point link. So mpaa is pushing hard to have congress allow them to downconvert signal on component video.

DVI on CRT is good because it protects your investment if the movie industry get's there way. (Note: mpaa lobby effort included $280million in politcal contributions this year alone).