Station Logo Burn-in Class Action Lawsuit

[Doc]

IT IS TIME TO ACT AND STOP STATION LOGO BURN-IN!!!!!

I have contacted a law firm specializing in class action lawsuits. The attorney Sam Hirsch was very interested in this issue.

At this time we need everyone who has logo burn-in, or service technicians who have knowledge of instances of logo burn-in to contact the attorneys at this e-mail address:

hirschsamlaw@aol.com

The next course of action will be based upon the responses received.

Let's step up and end this logo insanity.

[Doc]

Several clarifications about the purpose and status of the class action lawsuit since many forum readers have misinterpreted my reasons and intentions.

1. I am addamently opposed to frivolous lawsuits and I support tort reform on the federal and state levels. I am a physician in private practice for 23 yrs and over my career I have paid approximately $750,000.00 in malapractice insurance premiums (standard rate for my community). I am currently paying $40,000.00 per year for coverage. I have never filed a suit against anyone and prefer to avoid lawsuits at all costs. In my opinion this is not a frivolous lawsuit.

2. The purpose of this class action lawsuit is not to make me rich or to receive compensation. As best as I can tell I personally do not have station logo burn-in but I am very concerned about it. The main purpose of this suit is an injunction to either stop the current policy of stationery, station logos, or to modify it to make the practice safer for all viewers. If possible those viewers who have documented permanent damage to their tv sets should be compensated for their damage.

3. Several forum members have contacted the FCC and they were told that the FCC had no jurisdiction is this issue. They were also told to contact the equipment manufacturers. As everyone already knows there are already warnings in your tv manual concerning fixed images and burn-in (or "uneven wear"). That is specifically excluded from warranty. The following appears in my manual for my Mitsubishi WS-65907

Warning: To avoid permanently imprinting a fixed image onto your TV screen, please do not display the
same stationary images on the screen for more that 15% of your total TV viewing in one week. Examples
of stationary images are letterbox top/bottom bars from DVD disk or other video sources, side bars when
showing standard TV pictures on widescreen TV’s, stock market reports, video game patterns, station
logos, web sites or stationary computer images. Such patterns can unevenly age the picture tubes causing
permanent damage to the TV.

Warning: Do not leave stationary, toolbar, or partial images on-screen
for extended periods of time. Mix the types of pictures shown.
Uneven picture tube aging is NOT covered by your warranty.

During regular tv broadcasts the station logo will be present approximately 60% of the time (absent only during commercials) well above the manufacturers' recommendation of 15%. The logos also appear to always remain in the same location and in some cases are bright rather than transparent.

4. Several members have contacted stations with their concerns and were told that they were just following what other stations were doing. I personally contacted a station engineer who stated that he would pass my concerns on to others at the station and they would get back to me. On another forum there is a listing of all the e-mail addresses for the stations to e-mail complaints about station logos. None of this seems to have had any effect in changing the stations' policies.

5. I considered legislative remedy but I am opposed in principal to increasing governmental regulation. Sometimes it is necessary but I felt it would be much too difficult to achieve, and too time consuming to get any results.

6. To date I have neither seen nor heard of any independent evaluations to test the safety of any particular station logo on various types of tvs including standard, rear projection, plasma, DLP etc. These tests should be over extended periods of time on the same station. I hear about screen logos burned into tvs in sports bars since they stay on same station indefinitely. The answer cannot be to limit my time watching a particular station. Unless the station can prove that their logo will not cause burn-in in the manner that they chose then they should change their method.

7. The issue of sidebars, letterbox etc was not considered at this time mainly because it would seem to confuse the issues. (i.e. Original aspect ratio, 4:3, 16:9 etc.) The station logo issue seems much simplier and easier to correct.

8. Legal liability issues. As I have said I am not a lawyer but I have spoken to several lawyers and I understand several principals. While I have control as to whether or not I watch a program in 4:3 with sidebars or expand to fill the screen to 16:9, I have no control over station logos other than not watching tv.

When you plug your refrigerator into an electric outlet, there is an implied warranty from your electric power company that the electricity that they supply will not be harmful to your refrigerator. If they supply the wrong voltage and burn out your refrigerator, they are responsible and will pay for damages.

By the same token, there is an implied warranty from the broadcasting stations that their signal will not be harmful to your tv and cause permanent damage. When their station logo,over which they have complete control causes permant damage to your set, they are liable. In addition, the tv manufacturers have a disclaimer in their manuals warning of the problem. The stations have none.

Can anyone imagine a station disclaimer to this effect:

WARNING : This station employs a stationery station logo which can cause permanent burn-in and damage to your set if you watch this station for extended periods of time. You are advised to watch other stations frequently and limit your time viewing this station to no more than 15% of your total viewing time per week. If you choose instead to not follow these recommendations this station is not responsible for damage to your tv set.

You will never see anything like it.

Unfortunately, a class action lawsuit seems to be the only way to get the attention of the stations and networks concerning this issue.

Personally, I hope that the stations and networks get drift of the lawsuit, and become more responsible and change their policies before we have to get into legal wranglings. If they showed a little more concern for the viewers and their equipment we wouldn't be heading down this path.

[57U]

This may be difficult since you may have to go after each individual station - there are thousands.

Some stations have "friendly" logos - ones that are (either/and) small, transparent, move occasionally, etc. Please make sure you don't go after these stations.

I don't think you'll be able to go after the networks since they don't do the logo...

Good Luck.

[leadvocal]

Originally posted by 57U
I don't think you'll be able to go after the networks since they don't do the logo...


They do here. NBC has their pea**** and the letters NBC, CBS has their "eye", and FOX has their letters. The worst is NBC. Where I live the NBC channel is 11 and when a local broadcast is on I get the NBC logo w/pea**** and 11 plastered right next to it. Granted they are somewhat transparent but it is irratating.

It's a shame. I like the local news/weather/sports on channel 11 and have watched it for many years. I now find myself channel jumping to stations with a less intrusive logos.

[phenom]

With the size and bankrolls of the networks, what could (COULD) happen is the onus to fix this problem could ultimately fall on TV manufacturers, in the form of moving screens. I know some TVs already have technology built-in wherein the display moves a few millimeters every time you turn it on, to help reduce the possibility of burn-in. I wouldn't be surprised if the networks found a way to force the same feature in all TVs, which could in fact increase the cost of the sets, which will of course be transferred back to us. Someday, you could be paying for the reduction of burn-in caused by TV networks.

It may be far-fetched, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility, especially in the world of lawsuits.

[57U]

Originally posted by leadvocal They do here. NBC has their peac*ock and the letters NBC, CBS has their "eye", and FOX has their letters. The worst is NBC. Where I live the NBC channel is 11 and when a local broadcast is on I get the NBC logo w/peac*ck and 11 plastered right next to it.
As you mentioned, the individual station has some, perhaps all, responsibility for the logo - they add the "11".

PBS is the same - some stations have bad logos, some, like Detroit, have "good" (transparent) ones...

That's why I mentioned that you may not be able to go after the networks only. Perhaps once they are aware of the situation, they will send "directives" to their affiliates...

[cpaesq]

I'm with you Doc - I don't have any burn in , but want to get the point to the stations, before anything does happen.


Perhaps once they are aware of the situation, they will send "directives" to their affiliates...

But That's why - for simplicity sake - I think we should go after the Networks first - And hope that they send a mandate to their affiliates.

If not - then we would have to go to plan B - which is to go after each and every affiliate :eek:

[kevinw]

As much as I am for removing the logo's, does anyone have proof that they do damage a tv?
I know are 73in Mits at work has The Weather Channel logo burned into it but it tuned to the same station 16 hours a day. The damage is from the header bar not the logo.
As far as I can see is that the stations have the right to displaying the logo and it is our choice to turn the channel.

During regular tv broadcasts the station logo will be present approximately 60% of the time (absent only during
commercials) well above the manufacturers' recommendation of 15%. The logos also appear to always remain in
the same location and in some cases are bright rather than transparent. This is only valid if the same station is left on otherwise the logo changes with the channel.
Unfortunately the only people concerned are those that own HD tv's. Not may of us out there. Plus the logos have been around for nearly 10 years. http://www.logofreetv-usa.com/

[zarlor]

I'd elaborate that HDTV RPTVers are NOT the only ones who need to be concerned about unever wear from station logos. ANYONE with a CRT, Plasma, LCD or any other display subject to the issue of uneven wear can have a problem with this. My office has an LCD non-HDTV display with the FOX News Logo and a ticker bar in blazing green because of the uneven wear it's gone through.

We've had the discussion before about what kinds of technologies are more subject to the problem than others, so I won't reiterate here, but HD technology is definitely not the only type of display with susceptibility to this. Perhaps it has come a bit more to the forefront with HD displays simply because the folks buying them now have been spending a great deal of money to get them and are interested in protecting that investment. It's worth protecting a $2,000 set more so than a $200 one, I would think, and that may be why this issue has come more to the forefront since the advent of these logos.

[kevinw]

Lenny,
Unfortunately your LCD at work is damaged for the same reason my Mits at work is- STATIC IMAGE-
Both tv are left on the same channel for unusually long hours...

[zarlor]

Exactly. Those static images are what make those little phosphors work out all the harder and wear out sooner than the other pixels around them. Since a static image is just what these logos are then they have the potential to harm most TV technologies on the market, not just HD RPTVs, which was my point.

[mhdiab]

You don't have to after each and every station. All you do is go after CBS, NBC, FOX and ABC Networks. They broadcast enough material to be liable especially on the HDTV channel where they are responsible. All smaller network, local channels etc would pretty much be forced to follow the outcome of the lawsuit. It would be a risk for everybody else not to follow the outcome of the lawsuit.

There seems to be two risks for consumers by doing this:
1. As mentioned tv's might be more expensive if TV-manufacturers can solve the problem.
2. You loose in court then you better believe that you have seen the end of tranparent or other "viewer-friendly" logos...

[kojak light]

I used to be an avid viewer of MSNBC's coverage, but due to their liberal bias and their awful static graphics, I have dumped them.

FOX news is just fabulous. Not only is their content even-handed, but they have logos that move and change constantly.

I just felt that was worthy of a mention. Thanks!!

[gonar]

On a properly calibrated monitor, with the contrast and brightness set as it should, is burn-in from a faint network logo, still a concern? I'm offended by having to look at the logo all the time, but if everything is set as it should, does logo burn-in pose a great threat? Just wondering...

[davrun]

I had my Mits 65 inch diamond series monitor calibrated by an ISC tech and he said any steady image such as solid logos, stock ticker tape, etc. will eventually cause burn in. Try to change the position of the logo by changing the format every few minutes, such as zoom, stretch, etc. This will help if you must watch shows on the offending channels. I do this with Sci-Fi since they added the awful new logo.

[57U]

Originally posted by davrun
Try to change the position of the logo by changing the format every few minutes, such as zoom, stretch, etc. Every few minutes! Let's not be paranoid people. Just watching different channels during the day willl do fine. To get burn in, you probably have to have the exact same image on screen for 15-20% of the time, if not more.

This means you can't leave CNN on all day, but any regular viewing, in stretch mode is fine.

[davrun]

Perhaps I was misinformed about changing image format every few minutes. I guess the calibrator was just trying to be cautious. Nevertheless, this problem needs to be addressed. Kudos for those interested in bringing pressure on the networks and cable company offenders.

[57U]

I did a quick survey of logos tonight and I noticed something quite pleasant. The vast majority of the logos on about 200 channels are transparent like watermarks. There were very few "offensive" logos. Perhaps stations are getting the message.

I remember not too long ago that there were a lot of opaque, colourful logs on a lot of stations. Some even had disturbing "special effects" that distracted from the viewing every few minutes - starbursts, etc.

BTW, we have an "on-line with Rogers Cable" show, where viewers can call in or e-mail questions. Logos was one of the items of discussion - not regarding burn in, just regarding their "distraction". Rogers recommended that if they bother the viewer that we should complain to the CAB (Can. Assoc. of Broadcasters). Perhaps you have a similar organization in the US?

[Qwackertoo]

I searched after 57U's last post and found the National Association of Broadcasters website. Perhaps having a lawyer file a petition or lobbying "kit" that is referenced on their Legal & Regulatory section, that somehow this can reach the docket of the FCC. After visiting several areas of the NAB site, it might be a good place to start. Since I'm not a member of the NAB, I couldn't access detailed information that might outline proper procedures. It was an interesting site and seems to reach a very wide, perhaps complete, coverage of broadcasters, including both television and radio.

http://www.nab.org/about/

[Qwackertoo]

I found where they have a Campaign for Logo Free TV in the UK. Maybe we can start one here in the U.S.A. and spread the word to all the other HDTV forums on the internet. Strength in numbers and we can be the squeaky voice that will be heard loud and clear!

http://www.logofreetv.org.uk/content/correspondence/BBC_FOUR_Sam_Partington_04032002.htm

I think the letter @ the above link could be jazzed up with a bit more technical details, but could be a good start.

[Qwackertoo]

I wrote the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) last Thursday and received a reply this afternoon. Looks like they think it is the mfgs. responsibility to invent products that are unaffected by the static logos :( And to top it off, they wrote me back and the salutation was to MR. Darby :eek: Double Arrrrrrrrrgh!

Reply I received:

Mr. Darby
Display technology is a competitive area for CE manufacturers. Some modern display technologies are not affected at all by a static logo. This is a factor in some consumers' purchase choice. The manufacturers knew when they designed the products that broadcasters place such logos in their signals.

That said, the issue of uneven screen aging (as it is called by the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA)) has been quite difficult to constructively address. In spite of repeated attempts by NAB and others who have requested CEA companies (as a part of the CEA's ANSI-approved standards setting process) to provide data about phosphor burn/aging; the data has not been provided to the standards setting body. Such data would enable a scientific determination if some intensity level and/or other processing would be adequate to mitigate this concern.

At this point, most broadcasters guess at the intensity, and some slightly shift the position of the logo or rotate through similar logos. However, until we have a standard for what intensity level/degree of movement/timing of movement is needed, along with some standards for display aging that complement such settings, the results on the sets can be expected to vary. Some feel that marketplace forces will eventually shape the products, and that such forces should be allowed to operate.

I suggest you contact the CEA with any further concerns. Their web site is http://www.ce.org .

NAB continues to be ready to participate in establishing performance-based standards.

Art Allison
Director Advanced Engineering
NAB
1771 N St NW
Washington DC 20036
202 429 5418

[EarlKatt]

undefinedundefined
:wave: Hi Doc, saw your thread but hadn't looked at the date, did anything ever come about in your pursuit about the burned images? I see the e mail addy listed is not longer valid. We too have a big screen with burned images & understand Plasma TV's are even worse & we are none too happy. Odd thing is, our first TV never did this, our 65" did it within the first year :( Take Care, Happy New Year to you & yours, EarlKatt
P.S. The FOX Logo does burn in as well, that is what our burned images are :(

[andy]

I used to be an avid viewer of MSNBC's coverage, but due to their liberal bias and their awful static graphics, I have dumped them.

FOX news is just fabulous. Not only is their content even-handed, but they have logos that move and change constantly.

I just felt that was worthy of a mention. Thanks!!
I too am addicted to Fox news and although their logo revolves around it still stays in the same place and has burned in to my screen. I now flip back and forth being almost forced to watch news on channels I don't like. Emailing Fox was like talking to a wall!

[EarlKatt]

Well our opinion from this experience is that we will never buy these big screens/Mitsubishis.plasmas... or any other again!!! Maybe if those who respond to these discussions tell Mitsubishi, FOX & them that they are going to lose viewers & buyers.....they might actually do something. That 15% crap is B.S.!!! and Class Action often resloves nothing, am unsure what happens to the UN-claimed money as we have been involved in one & never heard or got any money for the product in this case it was siding not the TV :D the only winner in law suits are the attorneys !!! But boycotts of sorts sometimes work even better :) Take Care, Peace & Happy New Year :cheers: ....EarlKatt

[Telstar]

Well, here's my two-cents worth of ranting on the subject.

My Mitsu WS55807 is about four years old. The picture quality, especially in HD (Comcast Cable), to my eye, is nothing short of amazing.

When I purchased it (my first big-screen) I had little knowledge (should have done more research) about the consequences of "Burn-in". The subject was "mentioned" by the salesman and the manual that comes with the unit DOES have frequent warnings:

WARNING: do not leave stationary or letterbox images on-screen for extended periods of time. Mix the types shown. Stationary images can cause uneven aging of the phosphors and leave subtle ghosts of the stationary images in the picture. Uneven picture tube aging is NOT covered by your warranty.
Do not show the same stationary image for more than 15% of your total TV viewing in any one week.

Yes, I read the warning and tried to heed it but....setting "reminders" and not being there to turn them off right away took it's toll. And of course, the aforementioned Station Logo's, ID's, Stock-market report bars, (the word LIVE is noticeable in the upper left corner of the screen) have left their pinkish hue on the screen.
Try to change the position of the logo by changing the format every few minutes, such as zoom, stretch, etc. This will help if you must watch shows on the offending channels.
It soon became apparent (as the above quote suggests) that an actual change in my life-style would be necessary to try and avoid the burning-in process. I tried my best but, being away from the screen when reminders came on (admittedly, perhaps even "napping"), watching FOX, CNN, etc. with their static logos and also trying to adhere to the "15% rule" was too much for me to adjust to. I did my best but, as time went on burn-in was winning the battle.

My next big-screen purchase will find for me newer technology that will have overcome this unfortunate side-effect of the CRT. But, for now, I'm stuck with burned-in images that, even though subtle or perhaps not even visible to someone I've invited for the first time to watch something on my TV (unless I happen to point it out to them) is, nonetheless, painfully obvious to myself.

There is no hope for me, short of the manufacturer admitting to a "fault" and happily replacing the offending tubes. Yeah right! This ain't gonna happen! (only in my dreams...lol).

I also believe lawsuits would be a waste of time (it's not as if I hadn't been warned).
Who to sue?...the manufacturer? the stations? the cable provider?....

The first cathode ray tube scanning device was invented by the German scientist Karl Ferdinand Braun in 1897.
How 'bout we sue this guy's estate?

So, I do my best to live with the burn-in, trying not to let it otherwise spoil or interfere with my enjoyment of watching the tube.

Telstar :wave:

[EarlKatt]

We know all about the warnings,etc...BS is still my answer!!! It is their way of not taking responsibilty for what is an expensive repair bill for something they knew was a fault & BS ! And 15% of what viewing time 2,3,4 ...hours(?), pretty general & still BS!!! Maybe your image is not bad, it depends on the background at the time of the viewing white or light, solid or busy as to how seeable the burn is.
This is our 2nd Mitsubishi, the first was 55" & 5 yrs old...never a burn, the 2nd a 65" burned in the first 6 mos, so maybe something was faulty this time but we aren't about to spend $1,000's to buy these TV's to have them do this & for them to not even give a care, then just kick back, suck it up ! It should prove interesting when so many realize that watching one football game could burn these TV's up since that is why so many are bought, Plasmas are even more suseptible, nor are we too happy bout someone telling us what we can watch or how long we can watch it, etc. IT'S CRAP !!! We just won't buy them (Mitsubishi inparticular) because of their attitude,etc when this one burned in less then 6 mos !!!
Isn't it odd, I hear they came up with a fix :) !!!
There are TV's that don't burn, that is what we will buy from now on, and JFI, am not about the one who advocated a lawsuit, but it usually gets the manufacturers to do something, IF, they want to stay in biz :) Am more about Boycotting, if enough people write the manufacturers of these TV's, telling them they won't buy their products,etc. miraculous cures & fixes seem to happen...Hmmm(?) kick back, do nothing & you will see, "Screwed, blued & tattooed", which happens all to often with business as usual...Take Care, EarlKatt

[labatt90]

Interesting post. I have been monitoring this all day after reading it. I have a plasma and we have to be concerned with burn in more then most tv users. I noticed that most of them today that I saw were transparent. However, the stations need to be aware of users like ourselves that are going to be increasing in number. I think they should eliminate logo's or do what a previous post says that fox does.


Good fight. I hope you win a change in policy at the least from the networks.

[EarlKatt]

Just for info labett90....FOX's Logo will burn your screen, that is the one burned in ours, not just the logo but the ticker along the bottom...good luck - there is no safe Logo,etc !! According to their calculations they base the 15% on 5 hours of viewing, that's like 45 minutes tops you should watch any channel & that is B.S. :) Take Care,EarlKatt

[Rich]

I do feel it is outrageous for the broadcasters to include something in their picture that they know will damage the screens of most people who are watching. I found that post containing the broadcaster association's response interesting, however. If I read it right, they are saying that the manufacturers do NOT want to provide solid data on what will cause burn in and what will not. I take that to mean that the manufacturers do not want the facts to be out there. Once lcds, dlp and lycos approach the "tipping point" of supplanting crts, this will probably change, and they will take the opposite tack. We will then hear that burn in is a greater problem then it is.

[veefer750]

:canada:
I bought a 52" RCA HD OCT. 2003 from the Brick and at the strong urging of the salesman purchased a $349.99 extended warranty. :rmoon2:
3 months later the built-in DVD player quit. 2 months later we started to see a "GHOST IMAGE" or screen burn-in.
We subscribe to a satalite carrier called BELL EXPRESS VU. Bell Express Vu has an on screen program guide. This on screen program guide has burned an image of itself onto our very new 52" RCA TV.
Contacted RCA, they say it is not their fault it is Bell Express Vu's fault and RCA won't repair. RCA says the signal is so strong from Bell it's burned-in on our screen and it will be cheaper to replace than to repair.
Contacted Bell and they say it is RCA's problem and Bell says they won't repair either.
How convenient!!!!!
The Brick has a policy they call "the lemon warranty" if your tv needs to be repaired 3 times then it's replaced for free. Maybe it will be replaced this way.

Has anybody had luck getting service regarding this issue???????

Thanks

Frank

[Brian@BBY]

most if not all to my knowledge extended warranties/mfgr warranties do not cover burn-in because they claim it as neglect.

i own a samsung plasma and i have had several if not hundreds of "temp" burns. It seems while plasma tv's burn in quicker than any other technology that they are more forgiving. When you burn in a crt, it's like pretty much a permenant thing. I have seen several plasma tv's that where burned in pretty bad (including my own) repaired by watching varying programing or putting it on a solid color screen.

in a nutshell, if you properly calibrate your tv, you should be able to lengthen the time of viewing stagnant images, but it's kinda like red eye reduction on a camera. it will "REDUCE" it not eliminate it.

Stations with transparent logos are NO PROBLEM on my set, it's ESPN and FOX who are the baddies on cable. Also the nickleodeon one is pretty big and doesnt move at all. Hopefully these and other stations will take a few minutes of their time one day to make their station logo more crt/plasma friendly so A) more people wont F_up their tv's and B) Watch their stations more often.