Quality Of Different HDTV Makers

[drdoom718]

What is it that companies like Hatachi, Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, & Toshiba know about making good quality TV sets that a companies like Zeneith , JVC, & Phillips don't know? Please correct me if I'm wrong but I rarely see any good reviews on them & not enough posts. In addition every time I go to BB, CC, or PCR they all tell me to stay away from those manufacturers. I'm in the process of choosing a 34" 16:9 HDTV, I've looked at the Pan, Sony & Tosh, but have realized that JVC, Phillips, & Zeneith also make a 34" 16:9. So please if you can shine some light on this question: What is it that companies like Hatachi, Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, & Toshiba know about making good quality TV sets that a company like Zeneith or JVC or Phillips don't know? I know Zeneith for example has been around as long or longer than some of the above mentioned names, are they not taking the TV business serious, or when it comes to TV's does everyone go in the direction the wind is blowing? Also anyone reading this that doesn't own a Zeneith, Phillips, or JVC would you buy one or have you ever considered buying one?

[dmlove]

I don't know about the other manufacturers, but I have a JVC HD-ready direct-view 36" 4:3 (I know, I should have gone widescreen, but at the time, I didn't think HD would spread so quickly). Anyway, this TV is absolutely outstanding. The picture quality on HD channels is awesome.

[sto22]

Zenith moved a lot (if not all) of their production to Mexico.

Maybe when your focus is making things cheaper, you end of making cheap things?

$.02

sto22

[57U]

JVC have always been known to have lots of "bells & whistles", for a low price. This impacts on quality and reliability. This doesn't mean you can't get a good TV as mentioned above, but the likelihood of it being unreliable or not having the longevity of the others is higher.

JVC are the only ones who produce the S-VHS decks that have the features I want. I even buy the expensive ones for the features (about US$4-500) They are OK while they are working, but they don't last nearly as well as other brands.

I would also mention Mits as one of the top brands. Basically, it usually comes down to how much you spend for an equivalent technology. (you can't for example compare CRT-based RPTVs and Plasmas)

Over 20 years ago I bought a 51" RCA RPTV. It was half the price of the other brands of the time. I went in with my eyes open, so if it's a deal and if your eyes are open, then OK.

[kevinw]

Most of these companies are intertwined
Goldstar became LG. LG owns Zenith. LG is in a partnership called LGPhillips with Phillips. Phillips also owns Marantz and Magnavox.
Matsu****a owns Panasonic,Quasar,Technics and JVC.
Toshiba gets CRT's from Hitachi and Toshiba manufactures TVs in Lebanon TN and Jaurez MX.
Thomson electronics purchased RCA. Thomson/RCA developed the first widescreen TV.
Thomson and Zenith were part of the 'Grand Alliance" the inventors of HD.
http://static.elibrary.com/i/industryweek/june191995/alliancesayspicturethishighdefinitiontelevisiondig/
Before LG bought Zenith. JVC and Zenith had a partnership of rebadging each others products and selling them as there own product- just like a Mercury Villager and Nissan Quest were for Ford and Nissan.

[Ratman]

Originally posted by kevinw
Matsu****a owns Panasonic,Quasar,Technics and JVC.


O-o-o-o... you said the **** word!:D

[kevinw]

I saw the stars and I was amazed that just the combination of- TIHS - in reverse order would fire up the Censor-ware:whistle:

[57U]

It even censors the short form of Richard. :rolleyes:

Regarding company ownership, although the same company may own a product the final result may not be the same. GM for example makes many varieties of cars, but some are better than others. Toyota owns Lexus for example.

Also, the CRTs that Hitachi makes for others, may be different than the CRTs they use themselves. These are all related to the specifications of the individual products, so "ownership" and place of manufacture can be irrelevant.

[kevinw]

If you add to the fact that many products like DVD players are manufactured at 3rd party assembly points in China ..Today we build Apex, after lunch we will do Memorex....tommorrow ????

[57U]

DVD players are really interesting. There are so many brands and so few manufacturers. I read that some "cheaper" DVD players have identical components to some of the more expensive ones, because it's cheaper to build them the same. Some of the features are then either enabled or disabled depending on brand, model, etc....

Post-production quality control may also be different for different players.

[mech]

First off I wanted to say that I have enjoyed this forum for quite some time and have used some of the info you guys post for other forums that I attend. Mostly Agoraquest because I am a Sony owner of just about every component in my HT.

Instead of "Trolling" I felt that I had to post on this topic. Ok, here goes! Don't some of you guys feel a bit guilty about leading this guy on about most of the brands all being the same, like the Honda/Acura type of comparison? If you are an average Joe you might not tell the difference between a Zenith or a Mitsu off the bat, but for anyone who knows about HDTV's or Monitors there is more then a slite difference between brands in my opinion. Yes I am a firm beleiver in the opinions saying too! LOL, but I have seen time and time again that certain brands have far more useful features and longevity then others.

I don't want this to get into a brand wars post, but if I were to say what is the best tv for the money right now, it would be hands down a Samsung. Do I own one? No, but I do think if I were wanting to jump into the HDTV market with a thinner wallet that would be my choice.

[drdoom718]

I'm not being misled, or am I trying to save a buck, thanks for the followup guys, I did major in advertising and know that the cost of packaging, labling, and advertisment plays a role in you paying $10 for a bottle of wine or $100.

[mech]

Please don't take my post as you trying to go cheap, that was not my intent at all. I also do agree with you about advertising and have seen this many times, but in electronics I have found more times then not, "You get what you pay for." This is why I mentioned the Samsung, decent product for a good price.

[kevinw]

Actually the part I left out is Marketing plays a big part in purchases also. I bought a Sony so I have to have Sony everything. Why because Sony is the best ? No because it is a Sony!! Brand loyalty!!

Overall there is no difference in performance to the average guy.
Most people purchase on brand recognition and what they are use to. Dad drove a Ford, I drive a Ford..

Twenty years ago Samsung was considered cheap garbage while Sony was THE BRAND. 30 years ago Zenith and RCA were the top dogs. 40 years ago it was Curtis-Mathis..Now days Hitachi, who did not even have a product in the American market 40 years ago except for small reel to reel tape players, is a top dog in sales. Is the product better than Mitsubishi,Sony or Toshiba? Maybe? But the avererage Joe/Jill is still going to buy what is familiar.
The RCA brand still sells even though it is not a HOT product like anything Plasma. EDTV for example have been purchased simply because plasma is cool, not because they are the best in PQ.

Now those of us that visit sites like this or others like this are not your average consumer. We are looking for either the best performer or the best bang for our buck.

I always chuckle when someone asks "What is the best" because no matter what, the best is the one I bought. After all no one wants to think they bought the wrong TV. I know I don't.

[mech]

I totally agree with many of your points except why I bought Sony everything. The main reason is I think they make the best Tv's and Monitors. Some people would argue that maybe saying Mitsu, or Lowee, but I have worked in graphics for quite some time and I have seen time and time again.

Now as someone who knows a bit about HT's I know that Sony is not known for there AV receivers, but I love the fact that everything works well together. I know that Yamaha and Onkyo or Harmon Kardon probably make a better receiver and I knew I would give up a little for convienence, but not too much. I do have brand loyalty, but I try to learn as much as possible about HT's and base a decision on that.

One thing that I completely agree with is the fact that nobody wants to hear that they made the wrong purchase. Thats sucks when you know that you did too! LOL.. I have lived that before and I am sure I will do it again.

[kevinw]

Mech,
HA HA
The Sony part was not a swipe at you-- just a coincidence. Sony is easier to type without misspelling. I have always bought what I thought was the best for my pricepoint regardless of brand.
:D

[conehead]

And for the price you cant beat the sleeper, JVC 34 inch HDTV on the market.

[Scott5626]

Originally posted by mech
First off I wanted to say that I have enjoyed this forum for quite some time and have used some of the info you guys post for other forums that I attend. Mostly Agoraquest because I am a Sony owner of just about every component in my HT.

Instead of "Trolling" I felt that I had to post on this topic. Ok, here goes! Don't some of you guys feel a bit guilty about leading this guy on about most of the brands all being the same, like the Honda/Acura type of comparison? If you are an average Joe you might not tell the difference between a Zenith or a Mitsu off the bat, but for anyone who knows about HDTV's or Monitors there is more then a slite difference between brands in my opinion. Yes I am a firm beleiver in the opinions saying too! LOL, but I have seen time and time again that certain brands have far more useful features and longevity then others.

I don't want this to get into a brand wars post, but if I were to say what is the best tv for the money right now, it would be hands down a Samsung. Do I own one? No, but I do think if I were wanting to jump into the HDTV market with a thinner wallet that would be my choice.

Im new so dont mind me but I bought a Samsung 32" HDTV from Sears and had it 1 day and the main circiut board went, now Im aware that electronics break down somewhat often, so I exchanged it for another and guess what not the same problem but the new one would not display the ticker at news stations it cutt half of it off. After this I had purchased a Samsung HTK6 with the Klipsh speakers, it kept a blue line on the screen when watching a DVD so I gave up on Samsung products. Was this foolish of me?

[BadCamper]

Originally posted by 57U
I read that some "cheaper" DVD players have identical components to some of the more expensive ones, because it's cheaper to build them the same.

As I've said before, I used to be a retail slave...err, I mean salesman. As such, I could get my hands on most major brands of equipment and play around with them.
There were SEVERAL items including DVD/VCR combos, TIVO recorders for DirecTV, and televisions that were IDENTICAL save for the plastic cover on the front and the little "brand" sticker on the back.
The running theory that just a few large factories produce these lesser expensive electronics for multiple brands isn't too far-fetched. I believe it!

[BadCamper]

Originally posted by kevinw
I always chuckle when someone asks "What is the best" because no matter what, the best is the one I bought. After all no one wants to think they bought the wrong TV. I know I don't.

When I was a salesman, customers HATED my response to the question that 9 out of 10 people ask, "What is the best?" I usually just responded "That's really not a fair question to ask of me, so I can't give you an answer." But if they were hard-pressed and wanted to know why I thought it wasn't fair, I'd tell them the following:

* how what I thought was best is very likely going to be different from what they might think is best
* there are many qualifications people have for best: price, features, availability, reliability, compatibility, bells & whistles, etc.
* each salesman they ask will give them a different answer to that question, so why should they buy what the first salesman they talk to says is best?

Probably lost a few sales by doing this, but the majority of customers would thank me for being honest or, at the least, respect what I had to say. :D

[mech]

Originally posted by Scott5626
Im new so dont mind me but I bought a Samsung 32" HDTV from Sears and had it 1 day and the main circiut board went, now Im aware that electronics break down somewhat often, so I exchanged it for another and guess what not the same problem but the new one would not display the ticker at news stations it cutt half of it off. After this I had purchased a Samsung HTK6 with the Klipsh speakers, it kept a blue line on the screen when watching a DVD so I gave up on Samsung products. Was this foolish of me?

No,

Not at all, some times we all have bad luck with products and if you try something a few times and it doesn't work you move on. I know for a fact that every manufacturer has problems no matter how high end you get.

[woodman]

Here's the POV and some real "facts" about TV sets from someone who's spent more than 50 years working on (inside of) TV sets of every brand:

1. There is absolutely, positively no "best" brand.
2. What is "best" today (or more correctly-this year) may or may NOT be "best" next year.
3. A good, trouble-free ownership experience can be had with any make or model - but the odds of getting such DO vary from one brand to another, and CAN vary from one year to another.
4. TV sets today - especially of the HDTV variety - are vastly more complicated than the analog sets of yesteryear ever thought of being.
5. Conscientious, honest, reliable, and most importantly - competent technicians are in extremely short supply, and getting more so as time goes on.
6. Technical support from the set mfgs. is getting poorer as time goes on, and with some brands is virtually non-existent.
7. When sets are properly setup and adjusted, there is such little difference in picture quality that it's really a non-issue and certainly not a criteria for choosing one brand over another. The differences in picture quality that are observed in retail stores are mostly due to how close (or far) from optimum an individual set has been setup and adjusted - NOT from any basic picture quality differences. Some brands, such as Pioneer take more care (and spend more time) getting their sets properly adjusted at the factory. This results in people reaching the (incorrect) conclusion that these brands have superior picture quality.
8. All of the above combine to make the choice of a retailer of more importance than the choice of which set to buy. Also, the lack of competent technical help and support make the purchase of extended warranty protection a virtual no-brainer, IMO.

In answer to the original poster's question:
There are no mfgs. that "know" how to produce better sets than other mfgs. can ... the differences from one company to another are mainly in how they decide to "cut corners" in their efforts to produce their sets at lower prices than last year.

[mech]

I agree with many of the points you make, but I have to throw in this factor. Go to 10 auto shops and ask career mechanics what cars are the biggest piece O' Shats manufactured in the last 10 years. They will give you answers all over the board.

The point is no matter what, it still comes down to personel opinion based on the knowlege that each individual person has experienced.

I do disagree with this point:

7. When sets are properly setup and adjusted, there is such little difference in picture quality that it's really a non-issue and certainly not a criteria for choosing one brand over another.

Are you serious? You can't be..... You had an excellent post going and made great points until this. As someone who seems like a pro in the business I can't beleive you would think there is no difference. While I do agree the stores like CC or BB don't know what in the hell they are doing when setting these tv's up and most don't give you a true HD picture. I know that I can tell a difference between a Sony XBR and a sharp for damn sure.

[Goddahavit]

Originally posted by mech
:

7. When sets are properly setup and adjusted, there is such little difference in picture quality that it's really a non-issue and certainly not a criteria for choosing one brand over another.



This is actually a question I have been pondering for quit a wile, and I think I would probably agree with it among the top brands out there,

the more I learn about ISF, I think I understand the goal is to make each display conform to a standard, so is thier really any differance between properly calibrated sets???

maybe thier are diffeent problems with each set, getting to that point, but all I can find out there says each set can look great after a calibration,

So I ask is thier in the end a real differance.......

out of the box, I see definate differences,

but I have yet to compair properly calibrated sets, so I have to believe it when someone who has tells me they are basically the same..

just my .02

[mech]

Well if you honestly feel that way why don't you trade in that Mitsu for a Zenith and properly calibrate it and save big $$$

:D

[kevinw]

I see real differences in un-calibrated RPTVS but not much after tweaking.
On tubes I see no difference at all in PQ:whistle:
maybe because tubes are so small. ;)

[mech]

LOL... Kevin

Read my post above yours and insert your model. :whistle:

[kevinw]

HA HA
Actually at the time I bought mine it was the Cheapest I could afford...PQ was ok but not great. After doing AVIA Tune up, convergence, geometry, adjusting overscan, Mechanical Focus abd eliminated redpush It looked better than my friends MITS and Pioneers Elites:smokin:

[mech]

Kevin,

I know a Jedi mind trick when I see one! LOL.... Are you trying to tell me that your Tosh was the cheapest set around? I am sure you could have picked up one of the other cheaper brands and calibrated it for the same performance. :D

[Goddahavit]

well, I did say top brands,

and I am still kicking myself for not getting that panasonic I was looking at, for what I spent on my mits, I could have had the panasonic professionally calibrated...
and still saved money.

live and learn...

also alot of the differances can be inputs, and menus and features..

like I said just my .02

[kevinw]

Originally posted by mech
Kevin,

I know a Jedi mind trick when I see one! LOL.... Are you trying to tell me that your Tosh was the cheapest set around? I am sure you could have picked up one of the other cheaper brands and calibrated it for the same performance. :D
At the time there were no off brands-Apex etc.
It was Pioneer,Hitachi,Mitsubishi,SOny and Toshiba were your choices.
I bought mine a little over 2 years ago for 1450.. Going price on any TV was over 2k. Got it at the Sears outlet. Bezel had a small scratch from when the original delivery was muffed. Buyer kicked it back and to the outlet it went. At the time Hitachi Analogs were still going for 1700.
May the Force be with you:D

[woodman]

Originally posted by mech

I do disagree with this point:

7. When sets are properly setup and adjusted, there is such little difference in picture quality that it's really a non-issue and certainly not a criteria for choosing one brand over another.

Are you serious? You can't be..... You had an excellent post going and made great points until this. As someone who seems like a pro in the business I can't beleive you would think there is no difference. While I do agree the stores like CC or BB don't know what in the hell they are doing when setting these tv's up and most don't give you a true HD picture. I know that I can tell a difference between a Sony XBR and a sharp for damn sure. [/B]


Of course I'm serious - but you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. Where did I say that there's no difference between brands? I didn't say any such thing ... perhaps you need to re-read what I actually said. Furthermore, I made no reference whatever to how the sales staff at BB or CC (or anywhere else) might adjust the sets on their sales floor. What I did talk about was how much time and effort and expertise went into setting up and adjusting the sets AT THE FACTORY - not at a retail store where there is seldom anyone capable of adjusting the sets to anywhere near their optimum level (if at all).

Also, I should've pointed out in my original post that there are manufacturing tolerances involved that are the result of individual component parts (resistors, capacitors, chokes, transistors, I-Cs, etc.) being exactly what the design calls for or not. Resistors are commonly rated at +/- 10% unless a given circuit demands a tighter tolerance than that such as 5% or sometimes even 1%. Capacitors are generally "spec'd" at much wider tolerances than that - often in the case of electrlytics, +50%/-20%. The bottom line here is that it's entirely possible (although not terribly likely) that two sets coming off the assembly line could exhibit slightly different picture quality if one of them contained numerous parts that are on the high side of the tolerance curves, and the next one contained many parts that are on the low side of those same tolerance curves.

You say that you "know that you can tell a Sony XBR from a Sharp for damn sure" to which I respond - perhaps you can, but I reiterate once again that that's most likely due to the amount of time and effort that's put into setting up and adjusting the XBR at the factory than what's expended on the Sharp. Bear in mind that the XBR sells for probably double the price of the Sharp. Add to that the fact that I wouldn't buy a Sony television set for myself at any price! In spite of their excellent picture quality, I rank them near the bottom of my personal list of desirable brands to consider buying for my own use.

[JEFFDUBE]

Sony has by far the best quality and sales....RCA the worst. Panasonic is good quality but always just a bit short when compared to the "Sony Picture". JVC quality has really gone bad over the past 3 years...don't know what gives there? For most, I think it's all about service...the people they hire are not up to speed. Srervice can kill you from anyone...even Sony who's service is not good at all....fortunately many own they're products so the word gets out when there is a problem. Sony just has had a better product for years, period. They also pioneer all the new developments as well.

[conehead]

Does Wal-mart carry Sony products? Ever seen Marantz in Wal-mart.

[mech]

WoW,

We now have some honest people here. I can't believe the way this thread was going before. If I didn't know any better I would have pulled a Woodman and ran out and traded in my Sony's for 5 APEX tv's and had them calibrated by a pro.

Woodman:

Where I think you are a bit off is that fact that you bring stuff like tolerences of resistors and throw out a bunch of numbers to show us how much you know. I could care less, I am sure you are Mr. TV repair man, but the fact is I am not the only one who can tell the difference between different models and manufacturers. The price of TV's would drop big time if the world knew about this grand discovery of yours. APEX and SANYO would corner the market do to price.

In spite of their excellent picture quality, I rank them near the bottom of my personal list of desirable brands to consider buying for my own use.

Does this remark sound funny to anyone else? I would just assume that if you are on a HDTV forum that price would be more of a minor reason to buy one set over another, but doesn't picture quality rank near the top? I would say after that maybe features, dependabilty, and service? How many other manufactures are better in all of those catagories then SONY? I am sure others are just as high in all of those, but I would have to disagree that SONY is at the bottom.

I also wanted to mention that I am not the poster boy for SONY, I like them and own them, but I do give props to other manufacturers. So since you have bashed my equipment what do you own????

[conehead]

How close to a XBR do you have to be to see a $1000 difference?

[sto22]

I don't want to get into the "My brand is better than your brand" war but I do have some input (and experience) on the Wal-Mart comment.

Wal-Mart, in it's ongoing effort to rule the world:D , squeezes every last cent from it's vendors.

If you see a product in Wal-Mart, it's been nickeled and dimed to get to the lowest price point possible. You truly get what you pay for.

I bought my Sony because I've never had a problem with any of their products. (I've owned Sharp, JVC, Pioneer, Soundesign, Lloyds, Yamaha, Emerson, etc.)

Maybe I'm lucky.

I bought XBR and ES because I'd like to think that it's "better" than the "normal" Sony line. I have no proof that it is nor do I need it. Maybe I like the reaction when I tell some one that my DVD player was $900.:whistle:

Someone said either in this post or another that most people base their opinions on experience, then try and convert the rest of the world.

The soapbox is now free.

sto22

[mech]

Originally posted by conehead
How close to a XBR do you have to be to see a $1000 difference?

I would say that in reverse! All tv's look the same 300ft away! LOL

[kevinw]

All tv's when calibrated properly and viewd from a distance that is approproate for its size lookgood.:whistle:

As for Walmart/Sams. They sell rebranded model's.
Usually a past year model that is not currently sold gets re numbered and sold in bulk to SAMS/Costo or the such.

[mech]

sto22:

How do you like that ES5000? I heard that is a pure receiver!

[bpilati]

This is my first post on this forum.
But first let me put something into perspective, based on some of the other opinions I have seen so far. When you talk about the best like Sony, JVC, philips, Zenith, etc.... you are really talking about best in class. I've had stereo equipment that I was very pleased with like Onkyo, AR, NAD, JVC, JBL, etc... and thought it was pretty good stuff. Well it is, for the level I bought at. If I were to show you some Von Schweikert VR-11 speakers at $150,000/pair, your jaw might fall off and you might start comparing your Sony receiver to a GE alarm clock. So I think we're talking more about a class of equipment.
Any old how, my father has a Zenith 50" Plasma HDTV and is trying to resolve the problem with the HDMI on the TV. Direct TV installed the latest boxes and dish, and his HDMI cable is good, but still no picture. He can only get picture by using the component RGB cable and his audio through the RCA cable. Local Zenith authorized service providers have shown themselves to be incompetent so far. He has also been dealing the Zenith National Response Center who has told him they WILL fix this problem. It's been a long arduous waiting game, with his already putting out major money for equipment and service. The TV alone was $3800. He also has a 37" Visio HDTV that is having no problems.