dtc 100 or iscan pro

[mtnman]

very new to this i have a rca mm36110, i live in rural wv and will probably never get hd ota, so satellite is my only choice(i have standard directv). what i was wondering is the rca dtc 100 supposedly upconverts to 540p the iscan does 480p which would be the best for my set(also is the upconversion worth the 600.00 to 800.00 dollars) i am leaning toward the rca because of hbohd and hdnet ,also does anyone know if directv or whatever its going to be called is going to be adding more hd programming any help would be greatly appreciated.
thank mtnman

[ct32]

Two points:

1. If no off-air reception is likely, the DTC will give very good images on the 2 HD signals Direct offers. The progressive scan of the regular channels suffers from the over compression routine Direct (or any one satellite digiital service) does to squeeze as much onto their satellites as possible. Some say that DISH with their 6000 (I believe) receiver has slightly less compression and thus, a better image. I don't have DISH and don't subscribe to Direct any more (I use a C/Ku dish system) It's all really subjective and you'll hear pro/cons of both systems. Direct is rumored to be adding Showtime HD to their viewing soon. That rumor started in January and I've heard nothing since. The HDNet channel on Direct is great. Olympics right now are there.

2. The DVDO is a good tool too. If you plan DVD and don't have a progressive scan player or don't plan to buy one, this thing will provide very pleasing results with DVD, tape (without MacroVision), and laser (if you still have them). It also will "upconvert" your off-air reception to 480p and it looks better than plain NTSC as well. I think the DVDO gives 1 composite and 2 S-video inputs and this offers flexibility for other inputs. The DTC does not offer upconversion with ease.

I hope this offers my prespective on this. Good luck!

[mtnman]

sorry it took so long to reply ct 32 thanks for the info i still dont understand the compression thing what your saying is the dtc 100 even though it upconverts to 540p my picture wont be much different than what i am watching right now with the regular directv satellite (my tv set does not do this conversion internally has to have external doubler i think)once again sorry

[ZeroDegreeK]

mtnman,

You can actually see the compression DTV uses. Compare the picture quality of a premium channel like HBO or even MTV to a "filler" channel like MTV2 (ch333). You can see MTV2 is blurry and softer than HBO.

They do this to deliver more channels rather than quality channels. So instead of a good looking channel you get three lousy looking channels for the same bandwith.

Compressed garbage won't look any better with your dtc-100 upconverting to 540p/1080i, nor will it be any better with the IScan.

However, the good channels will look better with either the IScan or the dtc-100, with the edge (by a wide margin) going to the IScan. But for HD you need the dtc-100.

So the question is, what are you going to watch the most?

[ct32]

The compression is just as Zero says. It is a function of the non-moving dish home satellite systems. They use 3-5 satellites with 32 transmitters (transponders) each.
So, say 3 satellites, you would have 96 channels, right? That's the way analog C band satellite would use the satellite space. Nice pictures usually, but not very economical for a company if they're wanting to make money with their satellite investment.
So the digital systems (DirecTV and DISH) "compress" the video and audio signals using MPEG technology, so they can get 3, 4, 5, or more channels per transponder. That compression comes with a price though.
For example, a scene has, say, 100 colors of red in it. Most humans can only see, say, 50 colors of red. So, they compress the variance of red from the original 100 to 50. This would allow them to double the information they squeeze into the signal. Not double the quality, but double the information. The "extra" information space could be another color's information, another channel or whatever. This is a crude example, but I hope gives you the idea.
What we see from compression is a lack of detail. Instead of crisp images with a great deal of color detail, you a flattened appearance, some say a cartoon-like image. These problems aren't as noticeable on a small screen and will provide an image most find superior to cable. But, enlarge the image on a rear projection or front projection screen of 40" or more, you will start to see an unpleasant mottling of the image. This is what causes most to dislike the small (or pizza dish) dish systems (others have complaints of pricing, selection, the usual wants and desires conflicts). However, it is the only other method of satellite delivery without using a large ugly dish (known as BUD-big ugly dish) in the backyard.
The DTC100 will receive the satellite images and reproduce them faithfully. However, if the input is overly compressed the output will only show that fault. Right now, the high definition signals compare quite favorably to their original signal. They use the same MPEG compression scheme and look good. But satellite companies can only get 1 or 2 HDTV signals on a transponder. So again, $'s dictate the number of HDTV signals they'll put up. More HDTV viewers, we'll probably see an increase in HD signals.
For OTA (over-the-air) reception, your local channels received by an antenna (not cable another source of compression and another discussion) on the DTC100 will have the potential to look quite nice though. If your signal is strong and clean, the image shown in 540p (progressive) will be so much better than the analog, interlaced viewing (NTSC) you've watched before. The OTA reception of HD will look very nice, if available. The DTC100 is quite a nice receiver in the market of set-top-boxes (STB).

The DVDO is not used with the DTC100 at all. It's for all of your other video sources: tape, DVD, laser, other non-digital tuners. It will change the interlaced image of standard TV into a progressively scanned image for your digital TV. It won't be as clean as a original digital signal, but will look quite pleasing. The DVDO has routines programmed into it that can convert film transfers into a format better for digital TVs. Film is shown at a rate of 24 frames per second. TV is shown at 30 frames per second. The difference in these two frame rates can cause a noticeable flickering of the image. The DVDO uses a routine (3:2 pull down) to reduce this flicker and provide a more pleasing image. So, the DVD's dazzle and tapes look better than regular viewing.

Again, as ZeroD said, you probably need to decide what you will be watching. If HD reception is only from satellite, the offerings are only 2 for now on DirecTV. The DVDO will improve existing video to a better image. So, if you're loaded get both. The DTC will keep you changeable for the future and the DVDO will let you watch your present video in a much more pleasing way.

Hope these ramblings help explain. There are purely technical paper all over the internet about these. This is the nickel version. I've tried to enter some of the terms other use for posting information. If any need a more detailed explanation, you can search on the term and usually find good descriptions.

Charlie

[ZeroDegreeK]

ct32,

Great post!

I have one question about the BUD. If you were receiving DTV or Dish with a BUD, wouldn't there still be the same compression?

Thanks,
Zero Degree K

[ct32]

The BUD is receiving 1st generation video. Many of those services offered on small dish are first received by analog receivers (C and Ku band) and then encoded using the MPEG compression. It is then rebroadcast to their satellites and sent back to earth for small dish reception.
I don't receive the DISH or DirecTV signals on my BUD. When did subscribe to DirecTV, I used the same oval small dish offered now and the DTC100. Over the years, the compression had become worse and worse. Finally, when they added several local stations around the US, the compression was unviewable for me. I went back to my big dish and C/Ku subscriptions.

I appreciated the lack of moving parts with the small dish. Also,t he instant reception available without having to move from satellite to satellite. However, picture quality was too bad when I viewed with my projector system. So, I abandoned it.

There are now services available only to small dish subscribers. Some say it bodes the end of the C/Ku reception, but I hope not. 4DTV revitalized BUD for awhile, but that is badly supported right now by the manufacturer, Motorola/General Instruments. Without attention and some effort, I could see BUD dying totally, except for few hobbiests. 4DTV using some compression, but typically not as severe as the small dishes. When you compare 1st generation analog to small dish digital, it's night and day. Compare 1st generation 4DTV digital to small dish, it's twilight and night; a difference but becoming more and more subtle with each new addition a broadcaster makes to the transponder. To my eye still much better.

[ZeroDegreeK]

The whole compression issue makes me sick as well. I would gladly sacrifice all the junky stations for 1 in HD. Don't even get me started on the digital music channels, and locals snubbing HD for multicasting. . . .

I guess quality of picture doesn't sell as well as "255 all digital channels" It is sad really.

[mtnman]

thanks zero and ct32 you both have shed a lot of light on this subject for me, closest store to buy either one is an hour and a half away and the sales people there know just about as much as i do (not much at all). not much into dvd (have toshiba sd 1700 not progressive scan)but love watching tv channel surfing, still leaning toward dtc100. one last question if you dont mind do you see directv and dish merger bringing more hd programming soon. sorry for bugging you all to death(but loving all the straight info this site has to offer) once again thanks so much.

[ct32]

Other than the movie services and the HD Net on DirecTV, the only other source receivable easily is network HD programming. If you don't have OTA reception it would be good to receive the 3 networks via satellite. Right now Directv only delivers standard definition (SD) via their network/locals downlink.
The issue of cost versus subscription still would play in whether they would offer more or not. Before there's a big movement, more customers have to ask for it (supply and demand). The merging of the two poses some future problems though. Each service uses a different encoding/reception scheme and are not compatible. So a merger will require phasing out one method and changing subscribers over to the combined standard. Only after that is done is there more usable satellite space for alternate programming.
Personally, I don't feel HD is their focus. I think Showtime HD will be added soon and that will be it for awhile. Next would be some sort of national network feed for those with HD waivers from their local, OTA broadcasters. Again, I think that's a few years away.

One last point: a resource to purchase your DTC and elliptical dish. A couple of points. This system is definitely user friendly and if you have any manual skills (wrench, screwdriver, and a helper), you can install DirecTV or Dish yourself. If that is practical, there are many resources on the net to purchase these items, usually with a substantial discount. Choose your options. If you can spend the time and energy to do yourself, you might make a good deal somewhere.