information overload - please help

[TimBoston]

I have an HDTV. I had HDTV cable and the quality of the HDTV was superb. I couldn't afford the $80.00 cable bill so I had to get rid of it. Now watching my favorite prime time shows is really
dissapointing. I got spoiled by the quality of the cable HDTV.
Anyway, now I started to look around for other HDTV options.
I assume I need an antenna. I live near Boston, in the 02472 area code and Antenna Web says that I'm less than 6 Miles from any station I care about watching. 3 of them came up green
(not light green) and the rest were yellow. The stations are a mix of VHF and UHF. I have a few 3 family houses in my way but nothing to huge. All the stations I want to see are close to gether in the compass orientation (228, 230 or 238 degrees)
I need to know what to buy for an antenna. I will spend any amount needed to get the job done right with the right antenna, but I don't want waste money with overkill either. Also, do I need anything besides the proper antenna, or do I just hook it up and turn the channel on my tv to the station I want and wham I'll get the quality I got my the cable company's HDTV? I have been reading for weeks about this topic all over the web and I have more questions than answers. There is way too much information available on this subject, and it's all confusing. I couldn't find one web site that sums it all up in a nice easy to understand way.
Is there anyone out there kind enough to help me sort this all out? I know I can't be the only one suffering from this same problem. Please Help

[Ratman]

Pay my travel, lodging and $40 per hour (that's cheap) and I'll hook it all up. And... you pay for materials.

It ain't easy bruddah! Take your time and search, read, and do some homework.

Not breaking your chops... but digital OTA reception is not as easy as hooking an indoor antenna and magic happens. We've all been though it.

I know this wording sounds condecending... NOT my intent!

[TimBoston]

hehe I hear you, i know it's gonna take research.
I'm looking for a place to start. I want someone to say, "try antenna X first, if that doesn't work try antenna y, etc, an so on, so I least know where to start my experimentation. I've read on here that some people get great HDTV from indoor antennas, and that what I'd like to try first, being the cheapest and easiest way to begin.
The stations I want to get are 2, 4, 5, 7, 25, and 56
When I look at the stations and where they are boradcasting, it says for digital they have seperate channels listed as:
2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, 25.1, and 56.1
Can anyone tell me how I'm supposed to tune into a channel with a ".1" after it, my tv has a built in tuner but doesn't have the ability to enter a "point anything" after the initial channel number.
Is their a device that I can hook up to do this, or will my tv do it automatically?
So even when I get the right antenna, how do I get to receive the .1 versions of the channels? How will I tell the difference? How will I know I'm watching in digital on the point one version of the station and not in analog on the regular broadcasting channel? Anyone?
Sincerely,
Clueless
:mecry:

[LeeS]

Do you care about the two stations that are GREEN? I don't even know what they are :) Just worry about the yellow ones.

The directions are far enough apart that you'd need a rotor. But before I'd worry about that I'd try one of the indoor UHF/VHF Radio Shack indoor antennas. Start cheap.

Read the the FAQs on OTA and OTA antennas.

There are a couple of new posts on antennas, read those.

The numbering system is also explained in one of the FAQs.

2-0 is the basic analog station, say ABC
2-1 is the primary digital station for ABC (HD)
2-2 is the primary digital station for ABC (SD)
Not always is there a 2-2 and up.

With the ATSC tuner you will be able to tune those stations.

Samsung and Panasonic make OTA only receivers. Or buy a used Direct TV receiver with the OTA built-in. I used a Toshiba DST-3000 for over a year. I just used the OTA part and never bothered with the Direct TV part. Lots of used Direct TV stuff floating around.

Do your reading and when ready come back with more questions.

Ratman will probably need an assistant, put me on that list.

We are all kind :) well sorta.

Lee :)

[Ratman]

Originally posted by LeeS
Ratman will probably need an assistant, put me on that list.

We are all kind :) well sorta.

Lee :)
LOL... no problem Lee! I'd love an apprentice! :D
Sounds like a "road trip" !
I can be there in 5-6 hours! We'll split the cost of the brews!

[hawks066]

Tim if you have Comcast in the Boston area it is only 7.50 a month for HD. No other digital cable package is required for having the HDTV service. You could have basic cable which is roughly 10 bucks, and HDTV service for 7.50. So for a total under 20 bucks, you have HDTV ABC, CBS, PBS, NBC, FOX. For the STD Cable package, roughly 42 bucks + HDTV 7.50 = under 50 bucks a month you get HD PBS, ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, ESPN, INHD, and INHD2. It really isn't a bad deal if you are looking for HD. My uncle has directv and is awaiting the TIVO HD Directv setup, and in the meantime he picked up HD through comcast for 7.50 a month. He loves it.

[TimBoston]

To Lee:
All the stations are within 10 degrees of each other (from 228 to 238) means I need a rotor?
I thought the antennas have a wider range than 10 degress, but what do I know.
You say the NTSC tuner will tune at the stations I mentioned. How? How would I tune into my PBS at 2.4? Or even my NBC at 4.1? You mentioned your local ABC has 2.1 as HD and 2.2 as SD, what is the SD? Then you said to buy a used reciever. Which I have no problem doing but why do I need one if my TV with it's NTSC tuner will work? I can't find the link you mentioned about the numbering system
FAQ, can you send me the link via this post? That'd be great, thanx.

To: Ratman
I've no doubt can figure out all the setup aspects myself, that's not the problem, thanx anyway. My problem is I'm not sure what I need yet.

To Hawks066
Comcast would not rent me an HD box unless I signed up for a digital package. They were insistant on this. If what you said was true I'd go for it in a second.

To all: I guess I'll let Voom come and get me started. I can always dump it, no commitment. I'm tired of reading endless info on this topic and ending up with different answers to the same questions, and being no closer to resolution than when I started. At least with Voom, I'll see how their OTA works for me, what direction they point it to, and what stations I get. If their own satellite HD stations are lame, I'll cancel after the first month. I just can't believe no company has taken this up. The right company could own the market selling and installing OTA's all over the country for clueless HDTV owners like myself. Right now, it's an open market with an ever increasing potential customer base.
A big thank you to everyone for trying to help me.
:mecry:

[Ratman]

Here are some antennas to consider:
The Yagi's are more directional. Since you need a 'wider' spread the bow-ties may prove to be better. The 4228 is probably overkill (and big @ 3' sq.).

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmuhf.htm

You can also consider this is a test, if it doesn't work, it's easily returnable:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160

NTSC (analog) channels do not use a .1, .2, etc To get analog channels, just select the 'real' channel number.

ATSC (digital) can (most times) carry a designation with a .1, .2, etc. These are called sub-channels and is designated by the station by a digital protocol called PSIP. This is (supposedly) done to make digital channel selction easier for the 'general public'.

Most STB's will allow you disable the feature which will allow you to select the 'real' digital station number. Most digital stations today reside in the UHF frequencies. Check www.titantv.com they will give you idea of whats available digitally in your area and provide both the 'real' digital channel numbers as well as the re-mapped channel designations.

As for Scumcast.... you do not have to subscribe to any digital packge! All you need is 'basic antenna' sevice and rent their STB for approx. $6 per month. Call and ask for a different CSR or ask for a supevisor. Don't let them tell you any different. IMO though... you'll probably get more digital (HD) channels by OTA.

Hope this gets you started...

[LeeS]

All the stations are within 10 degrees of each other (from 228 to 238) means I need a rotor?
You can go to www.winegard.com and look at the polar patterns for their antennas. The beam width is the widest at about 1/2 their max range. Narrow closer and farther. For the directional antennas 10 degrees is pretty far but depending on the antenna and the distance - anything is possible.
You say the NTSC tuner will tune at the stations I mentioned. How? How would I tune into my PBS at 2.4? Or even my NBC at 4.1? You mentioned your local ABC has 2.1 as HD and 2.2 as SD, what is the SD? Then you said to buy a used reciever. Which I have no problem doing but why do I need one if my TV with it's NTSC tuner will work? I can't find the link you mentioned about the numbering system

The NTSC tuner (analog) will tune channel 4, no periods/extensions. Anything with a .# requires an ATSC tuner (digital).

Lets not even talk about the NTSC tuners - that is just plain old tv we have had forever. Digital we can have SD (Standard Definition) or ED (enhanced definition) or HD (high definition)

A digital transmission doesn't necessarily mean HD or ED. It could just be an upconverted 4:3 tv program. Or, what you would get with your regular analog TV upcoverted to be broadcast digitally.

Fox digital transmits EDTV. Something to learn about later. Antennas are your problem now. :)

I'll look for the link on PSIP (how the .# stuff works)

Looks like Ratman has already answered the rest.

Lee

edits:

FAQ on OTA, the info on PSIP starts about half way down the page. http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3784

On installs, especially OTA. Not much money in it and as you have been reading, nothing but problems unless you are in an ideal situation/location. I wouldn't want to do it for a living.

[Ratman]

For PSIP info:

http://www.sarnoff.com/products_services/government_solutions/psip_tutorial/index.asp

[hawks066]

Tim, I suggest going to a local office and signing up that way because it seems that some of these people on the phone will tell you anything to get a sale. Mass, NH, and ME markets are all the same leadership and same policies. You have the right to have HDTV with no other digital package required.

[DoubleDAZ]

Originally posted by TimBoston
I just can't believe no company has taken this up. The right company could own the market selling and installing OTA's all over the country for clueless HDTV owners like myself. Right now, it's an open market with an ever increasing potential customer base. What? You turn down Ratman's (and LeeS) offer to install everything for you saying you could probably figure it all out yourself if you just knew what equipment you needed and then you say this? :)

I don't know where you bought your HDTV with integrated tuner, but I find it hard to believe they could not recommend an antenna. I'm sure they would have sold you an over-priced Terk had you asked. :)

VOOM may work out for you, but I would have just gone to Radio Shack and picked up a returnable antenna that met the requirements antennaweb gave you. By now you would have known what channels you could get and whether or not you would need a rotor. They probably already have some experience with what is needed locally.

I'm sure VOOM will put up something simple, like one of those antennas that attach to the dish, and be done with it. They will almost certainly not go through the trouble of trying a multitude of different antennas, rotors, mounting locations, etc., to get you the maximum number of channels available from your location, at least not for free. If they do, sign a long term contract quickly. :)

Just out of curiosity, what would you be willing to pay, in addition to equipment costs, for a service to do all this for you? By that I mean, how much is it worth to not have to purchase an antenna, try it out, return it, try another, etc., until you are satisfied you are getting all that you can? I believe Ratman's offer of $40/hr (plus travel and lodging) was dirt cheap and I think he'd reconsider his price after doing it just once. :D

[LeeS]

Ratman's offer of $40/hr (plus travel and lodging) was dirt cheap and I think he'd reconsider his price after doing it just once.
Dang, I imagine it is the assistant's job to climb the ladder etc isn't it? :( While he sits safely on the ground. I was thinking about this earlier. I'll need a raise. :)

Lee

[DoubleDAZ]

Originally posted by LeeS
Dang, I imagine it is the assistant's job to climb the ladder etc isn't it? :( While he sits safely on the ground. I was thinking about this earlier. I'll need a raise. :)

Lee ROTFLMAO!!! :D

[Ratman]

Originally posted by LeeS
Dang, I imagine it is the assistant's job to climb the ladder etc isn't it? :( While he sits safely on the ground. I was thinking about this earlier. I'll need a raise. :)

Lee

Oh okay!!
I'll buy the beer!:cheers:

[TimBoston]

Well thank you to everyone for all your help.
You've all been great and helpful.
I'm going to try the Comcast deal again and see
what they say. If they will give me an HD box
without the digital package my nightmare
will be over and I'll have perfect local HD for
only $7.50 per month. This whole ordeal has
been so frustrating. No wonder antennas are,
for most people, a thing of the past (long past).
Also, I want to thanx to the people who provide this website,
it seems to me the best of the lot.
If Comcast refuses, as they did originally,
can I buy somewhere, one the HD boxes they use?
Like from a company that sells black boxes or something?
If not, I'll be haunting you all again for more advice.
Thanx again,
Clueless in Boston

[TimBoston]

I changed my mind, I'm gonna give Voom a shot.
If they show up I'll have it in less than 48 hours.
I have a feeling I'm gonna like it. I'll keep
youz posted, no pun intended
:)
Thanx again

[Ratman]

Word of precaution... I've read on other forums and magazines that VOOM installers do less homework for OTA reception than the consumer will...

Kind of makes sense... they make no profit from OTA.
Caveat Emptor

[TimBoston]

Thanx Ratman,
Voom's coming - But I'm afraid to get my hopes up.
Not sure how to resolve that problem you mentioned, but I'll at least give him the antenna web print out of where the stations are vs. my location. What more can I do? I heard and read so much, and I'm hoping to get the most out of this install that's possible. Any tips on making sure this install isn't a hack job? Should I tell him not to use a diplexor? People make it sound as if a diplexor would be a bad thing, others say it doesn't matter. I'm getting even more nervous after reading more of the Voom
"install nightmares" posts. To top it all off, we're getting pounded by at least 12 inches of snow right now so I hope that won't hold up my install. ("We are sorry Sir, but your Voom installer is stuck in a snowbank...or..."Sorry pal, I can't set you up today, it's too dangerous")
So if you've (or anyone) have any thoughts, please share. I am getting excited but for some reason it's a scary type of excitement
;)
Anyway, I did the math as to what this will all mean for me regarding channels. So others might possibly benefit from my recent bout of HDTV related OCD, here what I came up with...

What VOOM will do for me:

I'll get a total of 44 NEW HDTV STATIONS (20 POSSIBLE LOCAL, 24 SATELLITE), 18 NEW "CABLE" CHANNELS, and 18 NEW MUSIC ONLY CHANNELS, but I'll be "losing" a total of 17 "cable" stations that I already have from Comcast.

THE LOCAL (possible) HIGH DEFINITION CHANNELS:

2.1 WGBH HDTV1, 2.2 WGBH HDTV2, 2.3 WGBH HDTV3, 2.4 WGBH HDTV4, 4.1 WBZ DT, 5.1 WCVB DT, 7.1 WHDH DT
7.2 WHDH HDTV2, 9.1 WMUR DT, 12.1 WPRI DT, 25.1 WFXT DT, 38.1 WSBK DT, 44.1 WGBX DT, 44.2 WGBX DT2, 44.3 WGBX DT3, 44.4 WGBX DT4, 50.1 WNDS DT, 56.1 WLVI DT, 60.1 WNEU DT, & 66.1 WUTF DT,

THE NEW VOOM HIGH DEFINITION SATELLITE CHANNELS:

100 HDNEWS (NEWS), 101 CINEMA 1 (MOVIES), 102 CINEMA 2 (MOVIES), 103 CINEMA 3 (MOVIES), 104 CINEMA 4 (MOVIES)
105 CINEMA 5 (MOVIES), 106 CINEMA 6 (MOVIES), 107 CINEMA 7 (MOVIES), 108 CINEMA 8 (MOVIES), 109 CINEMA 9 (MOVIES)
110 CINEMA 10 (MOVIES), 121 MONSTER (HORROR), 122 EPICS (CLASSIC MOVIES), 123 FOX WORLD SPT (SPORTS) HD
124 RUSH HD (SPORTS), 125 RAVE HD (VIDEOS), 126 ULTRA HD (GLOBAL TRENDS), 127 TREASURE (COLLECTING)
128 GALLERY (ARTS & MUSEUMS), 129 MOOV (MOOD MUSIC/VIDEO), 130 ANIMANIA (CARTOON/CHILDREN'S)
311 NFL GAME OF THE WEEK, 502 BRAVO HD, 601 DISCOVERY HD THEATER, & 999 INSIDE VOOM

THE NEW "CABLE" CHANNELS I'LL GET:

INDEPENDENT FILM CHANNEL, FUSE, HALLMARK, DISCOVERY HEALTH, CNN FN, STYLE, BIOGRAPHY, FUEL, BOOMERANG, MUSIC CHOICE, TENNIS, OXYGEN, SOAPNET, SPEED, TOON DISNEY
TURNER CLASSIC MOVIES, , NFL NETWORK, & TODAY'S COUNTRY

THE NEW MUSIC ONLY CHANNELS:

R&B/HIP HOP, CLASSIC R&B, POWER ROCK, CLASSIC ROCK,
ALTERNATIVE ROCK, PROGRESSIVE/ALTERNATIVE, SOFT ROCK,
HIT LIST, 80'S, 70'S, SOLID GOLD OLDIES, SMOOTH JAZZ, JAZZ,
BLUES, SOUNDSCAPES, CLASSICAL MASTERPIECES, LIGHT & CLASSICAL

THE "CABLE" CHANNELS I ALREADY HAVE VIA COMCAST CABLE
COMPANY THAT WILL NOW BE VIA VOOM'S SATELLITE:

AMC, CNN, HEADLINE NEWS, C-SPAN, C-SPAN2, MSNBC, CNBC, BRAVO, TRAVEL, ANIMAL PLANET, WOMAN'S ENTERTAINMENT, TBS, TNT, FX, TVLAND, COMEDY CENTRAL, A&E, BET, E, GAME SHOW,
COURT TV, SPIKE, DISCOVERY, TLC, CARTOON NETWORK, DISNEY,
NICKELODEON, MTV, VH1, OUTDOOR LIFE, ABC FAMILY, & FOX SPORTS WORLD

THE "CABLE" CHANNELS I'LL BE MISSING FROM THE VOOM SATELLITE:

HOME & GARDEN, USA, THE LEARNING CHANNEL, LIFETIME, FOX NEWS, THE WEATHER CHANNEL, ESPN, ESPN CLASSIC, ESPN 2, NESN, BOSTON CATHOLIC TV, HISTORY, SCI-FI, FOOD NETWORK, HSN, FOOD NETWORK, & INTERNETIONAL/RAI

[DoubleDAZ]

Tim,

One thing to remember when reading these forums is that seldom does anyone post who had a prefectly nice install/setup. All you ever hear about is the complaints, so it may go a lot better than you think.

Also, don't get overly hung up on numbers. Many HD channels, including those on VOOM as far as I know, don't do HD 24/7. All those PBS channels that you put in the HD category are undoubtedly SD except for the main one.

The bottomline is that of VOOM pffers channel you will watch and be content with, the you should be happy with your choice as long as VOOM remains a viable service. If it doesn't work out, you can always cancel and go to Plan B. :)

[TimBoston]

Well I got Voom, and the only glitch was that the OTA didn't come with the amp, and they have to come back to install it so my local channels will be more dependable. Other than that it's all good. The Voom exclusive channels really do stink, but they promise it'll get better, we shall see. The overall signal quality of all their stations is excellent. The box locks up every now and then, but a quick reboot and it's fine again.
thanx again to everyone for all the help/advice.