HDTVoice.com - High-Definition Television Talk - Early adopters win first round and maybe the final round

05-09-2005, 03:10 PM

kevinw

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Early adopters win first round and maybe the final round

For all those early adopters that purchased TV's before HDCP and HDMI/DVI
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5050900465.html

Quote:

U.S. appeals court tosses TV anti-piracy measure
By Brooks Boliek
Reuters
Monday, May 9, 2005; 1:29 PM

WASHINGTON (Hollywood Reporter) - A federal appeals court has dealt the entertainment industry a blow by tossing out the Federal Communications Commission's "broadcast flag" regulation designed to guard against piracy once the nation's broadcast TV stations convert to digital in the coming years.

In its unanimous decision released Friday, the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia ruled that the FCC overstepped its authority when it ordered set manufacturers to include technology to prevent the unauthorized copying of DTV (digital TV) programs.

"In this case, all relevant materials concerning the FCC's jurisdiction -- including the words of the Communications Act of 1934, its legislative history, subsequent legislation, relevant case law, and commission practices -- confirm that the FCC has no authority to regulate consumer electronic devices that can be used for receipt of wire or radio communication when those devices are not engaged in the process of radio or wire transmission," Judge Harry T. Edwards wrote for the court.

The decision is not just a setback for the entertainment industry's anti-piracy agenda, but it also is likely to complicate what is becoming a complex legislative agenda that covers everything from digital TV to copyright protection on the Internet.

Edwards minced few words in his decision, saying that the court could "find nothing in the statute, its legislative history, the applicable case law, or agency practice indicating that Congress meant to provide the sweeping authority the FCC now claims over receiver apparatus. And the agency's strained and implausible interpretations of the definition provisions of the Communications Act of 1934 do not lend credence to its position."

In throwing out the case, the court shut the door on the FCC and the entertainment industry for a rewrite at the agency. The industry's only avenue would be for it to get Congress to give the commission the specific authority to write a new rule.

While some entertainment industry executives were coy about their strategy Friday, National Association of Broadcasters president and CEO Edward O. Fritts said that his organization was prepared to go to Congress.

"Without a broadcast flag, consumers may lose access to the very best programming offered on local television," he said. "This remedy is designed to protect against unauthorized indiscriminate redistribution of programming over the Internet. We will work with Congress to authorize implementation of a broadcast flag that preserves the uniquely American system of free, local television."

While industry executives are readying a legislative alternative, so are the rule's opponents. Already emboldened by their victory Friday, they are likely to become a potent force, particularly as they often line up with and get support from such powerful high-technology companies as Intel and Microsoft.

"It's expected that the motion picture studios will probably want to go to Congress to finally get the FCC the authority they never had," said Fred von Lohmann, senior attorney for the Electronic Freedom Foundation. "I look forward to Congress hearing from the public interest side of this debate, a side that wasn't adequately heard from during the development of the broadcast flag before it was submitted to the commission or after it was submitted to the commission. The voices of libraries, of innovators, of tinkerers, a whole host of important public interest voices were not heard in this process, and we look forward to having them heard now."

Adding broadcast-flag legislation to Congress' plate packs an already overflowing agenda since lawmakers also want to rewrite the 1996 Telecommunications Act, set a "hard date" for the transition to digital TV, toughen the nation's laws for indecent programming and likely will be asked to reopen the nation's copyright law after the Supreme Court decides the Grokster case.

Gene Kimmelman, Consumers Union's Washington director, said that Friday's decision likely will complicate the attempt by House Commerce Committee chairman Rep. Joe Barton, R-Texas, to set a drop-dead date for TV broadcasters to end their current analog broadcasts and switch to digital.

"This will now become front and center in the DTV transition legislation," he said. "Because obviously the broadcast industry will claim that they can't move to digital, putting aside the date issue and all the complexity for consumers, because they can't protect their products. This will be an enormous fight."

Reuters/VNU

Last edited by kevinw : 05-09-2005 at 03:17 PM.

05-09-2005, 03:42 PM	#2
57U Runner/Cyclist/X-C Skier Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 17,115	See the following thread, especially post 4. HDCP is not the same as the broadcast flag. http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showt...&highlight=flag __________________ 57U - Toronto, Rogers Cable, SA8300HD, 500GB HDD & Hitachi 61UWX10B HDTV, Yamaha RX-V1 A/V Receiver, Martin Logan Speakers. Photos --> 57U's HT SA8300HD, 250GB HDD & KDL40W3000 (Upstairs) Please don't PM me with questions that can (and should) be asked in the forum, thanks. Personal Question? Fire away.

05-09-2005, 04:13 PM	#3
kevinw un-banned Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: ? Posts: 7,162	Isn't a flag that activates the content protection scheme?

05-09-2005, 04:42 PM	#4
mjones73 Moderator Join Date: May 2004 Location: North East, MD Posts: 3,924	It's a different scheme then HDCP. It's to prevent you from dumping programs via firewire to a computer and sharing them on the net basically. It only impacted OTA broadcasts and possibly local broadcasts carried on cable, not cable only programming or sats. __________________ Matt HT - Toshiba 57HX83, Toshiba HD-A3 (RIP HD-DVD), Directv HR20-100, Panasonic SA-XR57, Polk RT55i fronts, Polk RC55i rears, Polk CS240 center, Audiosource 8" sub Living Room - LG 30FS4D, Directv HR21-200 Please don't PM me with technical questions that should be posted in the forum!

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05-09-2005, 04:43 PM	#5
57U Runner/Cyclist/X-C Skier Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 17,115	The 5C flag discussed here is the one for recording - see the HDTV FAQ on "Recording HD". HDCP is already enabled on all HDMI interfaces and most DVI interfaces. HDCP has to do with whether two devices even communicate (handshake) __________________ 57U - Toronto, Rogers Cable, SA8300HD, 500GB HDD & Hitachi 61UWX10B HDTV, Yamaha RX-V1 A/V Receiver, Martin Logan Speakers. Photos --> 57U's HT SA8300HD, 250GB HDD & KDL40W3000 (Upstairs) Please don't PM me with questions that can (and should) be asked in the forum, thanks. Personal Question? Fire away.

05-10-2005, 08:19 AM

mfabien

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 57U

See the following thread, especially post 4. HDCP is not the same as the broadcast flag.

http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showt...&highlight=flag

Sorry to disagree, the Broadcast Flag has everything to do with HDCP. The flag is either ON or NOT, there are no different kind of Flags. It is the one and only flag associated directly with HDCP but it may also carry a DTCP copy code (flags) for archiving. Read:
http://www.mpaa.org/Press/Broadcast_Flag_QA.htm

For example, a DTCP flag "Copy Never" (vs Copy Once, Copy FREE) will not impact the program's recording to a DVR (DTCP is not relevant to DVI/HDMI and has no impact on recording to DVR). But it will not permit archiving to another device via Firewire.

The 5C copy flags are associated with the DTCP protocol which concerns Firewire not DVI or HDMI.

Having said this, HDCP and DTCP will interface when a program recorded on a DVR is targeted to be copied to D-VHS tape or some other device using firewire (IEEE 1394). See:
http://www.dtcp.com/

We have covered this before and your FAQ on recording is still confusing people between the two protocols.

Note: The «5C» is the collective name for Hitachi, Matsuhita, Intel, Sony, and Toshiba who license DTCP users. See:
http://www.dtcp.com/data/info%20200...01%20%201p4.pdf

Last edited by mfabien : 05-10-2005 at 09:23 AM.

05-10-2005, 09:43 AM	#7
57U Runner/Cyclist/X-C Skier Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 17,115	Michel, if you look at the 5C document, HDCP is not even mentioned. I know we have disagreed on this issue and perhaps my interpretation is simply different from yours. HDCP is associated with connections like DVI/HDMI to allow signals to flow between the connected components. HDCP is either an "on or off" signal (either allows or doesn't allow signal flow). 5C is different in that it also flows over firewire and allows for "record freely, record once or record never" options. Although the flags may function in the same way, the function of the 5C flag is different from HDCP. For example, there has been some discussion about the possible downrezzing of HD signals to "non-HDCP" devices and this has nothing to do with recording the signal. (At this time, downrezzing is still conjecture.) I differentiate between them because 5C has to do with recording, while HDCP has to do with signal flow. __________________ 57U - Toronto, Rogers Cable, SA8300HD, 500GB HDD & Hitachi 61UWX10B HDTV, Yamaha RX-V1 A/V Receiver, Martin Logan Speakers. Photos --> 57U's HT SA8300HD, 250GB HDD & KDL40W3000 (Upstairs) Please don't PM me with questions that can (and should) be asked in the forum, thanks. Personal Question? Fire away. Last edited by 57U : 05-10-2005 at 09:50 AM.

05-10-2005, 10:28 AM

mfabien

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 57U

HDCP is associated with connections like DVI/HDMI to allow signals to flow between the connected components. HDCP is either an "on or off" signal (either allows or doesn't allow signal flow)..

The ON or OFF you are talking about concerns the establishment of compliance using DVI ir HDMI. That is one thing. If the hanshake cannot take place, there is no signal coming through, Broadcast Flag or not.

The Broadcast Flag is a code that a producer of a TV program wants to have to protect his product from being distributed illegaly. Most programs transmitted will not carry the Broadcast Flag.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 57U

5C is different in that it also flows over firewire and allows for "record freely, record once or record never" options. Although the flags may function in the same way, the function of the 5C flag is different from HDCP. For example, there has been some discussion about the possible downrezzing of HD signals to "non-HDCP" devices and this has nothing to do with recording the signal. (At this time, downrezzing is still conjecture.).

Downrezzing, as specified in the FCC rule, is associated with the Broadcast Flag and the Broadcaster will be required to give the FCC a 30 day advance notice of its intention to downrez the Component output if the digital output of the STB is not used. Think about it, the question is not to downrez the Firewire, it's to downrez the Component because people are not, will not or cannot use DVI or HDMI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 57U

I differentiate between them because 5C has to do with recording, while HDCP has to do with signal flow.

5C has to do with DTCP which is for Firewire (and it's own copying rules) and HDCP is the Content Protection associated with DVI and HDMI and incorporates the Broadcast Flag feature but the signal can only work between compliant devices.

Last edited by mfabien : 05-10-2005 at 10:31 AM.

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05-10-2005, 12:02 PM	#9
mfabien Reged User Tier 2 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Montreal Posts: 732	Following my previous post, An HDTV user who has a DVR equipped with DVI or HDMI output will be able to record any program, Broadcast Flag or Not, without restriction. The playback to an HDTV will remain in HD in all circumstances when such receiver is a compliant receiver, ie, that the connection is a DVI or HDMI input. Otherwise, if the connection is via Component and the program has a Broadcast Flag, then there may be a downrezzing to 480i, as explained previously. The 5C flags have nothing to do with a Compliant DVR. These DTCP flags are associated with Firewire equipped devices and that of course includes a DVR so connected. I believe Mitsubishi has some such models.

05-10-2005, 01:31 PM	#10
mjones73 Moderator Join Date: May 2004 Location: North East, MD Posts: 3,924	"Sorry to disagree, the Broadcast Flag has everything to do with HDCP." They are two different things. HDCP is the handshake technology used between connected devices to allow them to talk to one another. Broadcast flags are another layer of copyright protection that can amoung other things possibly force you to use the digital connection. HDCP doesn't need to be present for the broadcast flags to work, just the technology needed for the broadcast flags. __________________ Matt HT - Toshiba 57HX83, Toshiba HD-A3 (RIP HD-DVD), Directv HR20-100, Panasonic SA-XR57, Polk RT55i fronts, Polk RC55i rears, Polk CS240 center, Audiosource 8" sub Living Room - LG 30FS4D, Directv HR21-200 Please don't PM me with technical questions that should be posted in the forum!

05-10-2005, 01:57 PM

#11

mfabien

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mjones73

"Sorry to disagree, the Broadcast Flag has everything to do with HDCP."

They are two different things. HDCP is the handshake technology used between connected devices to allow them to talk to one another. Broadcast flags are another layer of copyright protection that can amoung other things possibly force you to use the digital connection. HDCP doesn't need to be present for the broadcast flags to work, just the technology needed for the broadcast flags.

Agree entirely.

05-10-2005, 02:01 PM

#12

kevinw

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Oops

This was not a discussion starter on pupose-
Read this:

Quote:

Digital Interfaces Lead to Networking

Digital Interfaces for DTV Proliferate:
Another growing trend in DTV displays is the inclusion of one or more digital interface connectors – typically either a connector based on the IEEE-1394 standard (a.k.a. iLink or FireWire) or on the digital visual interface (DVI) standard. Many fully integrated HDTV sets include both, while most DTV monitors include copy protected DVI connectors as the sole digital interface.

IEEE-1394 Evolves:
In most cases the IEEE-1394 digital interface is used to connect a digital receiver with an HDTV recorder (such as a D-VHS VCR) to record and playback the highest quality programming possible. The connector also can be used to distribute programming to multiple devices connected to an in-home network. The interface ships digital signals in a manageable compressed form and can include digital networking protocols that allow components to communicate back and forth to simplify the operation of an entire system with minimum commands from users.

The IEEE-1394 interface was developed by Apple Computer in 1986, and was called "FireWire" for its fast operating speed. In 1995, the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE) adopted this serial bus as the 1394 standard. Sony trademarked their name "iLink" for their implementation of the 1394 bus as a four-pin connector. The specification was updated in 2000 as the 1394a standard, supporting speeds of 100Mbps, 200Mbps and 400Mbps over a distance of 4.5 meters, and up to 63 peer-to-peer electronic devices, also known as nodes.

IEEE-1394b Arrives:
In 2001, the IEEE 1394b standard was adopted as a network technology. This version is capable of moving data streams at faster speeds over longer distances than the original version. The new form supports up to 3.2 Gbps and additional forms of cable. Speeds as high as 100Mbps over 100 meters will be supported by 1394b using Category 5 cable, 400 Mbps over 100 meters using plastic optical fiber, and as high as 3.2 Gbps over 100 meters using glass optical fiber. The "b" standard is compatible with the "a" standard at up to 400Mbps. All 1394 devices support hot swapping and plug-and-play, so components automatically will recognize each other and configure themselves upon connection. The 1394b standard is being adopted by growing numbers of DTV product manufacturers for multi-room networking solutions.

DTCP – The 1394 Gatekeeper:
In DTV applications the 1394 interface is safeguarded with the Digital Transmission Content Protection (DTCP) system to prevent the illicit duplication of copyrighted programming. The DTCP system also is known as "5C" for its five developing companies – Intel, Hitachi, Matsu****a, Sony and Toshiba.

DVI Selected for Digital Monitors:
Many of the digital television sets, monitors and set-top boxes are equipped with a digital connector designed to relay uncompressed digital signals from a receiver or playback device to a digital video display device. Called the digital visual interface (DVI), the connector ships uncompressed digital video-only signals through a highly secure pathway.

Because DVI signals are not compressed, current consumer devices cannot easily record them; neither can they be sent out to multiple devices in a digital home network. As with the IEEE-1394’s DTCP system, content passing over DVI connectors also can be protected against copyright violations through a system called high-bandwidth digital content protection (HDCP).

In 2001, the CEA's DTV Interface Subcommittee announced a new standard for the use of DVI called EIA/CEA-861A. The standard defines a method for sending digital video signals over DVI and OpenLDI interface specifications. The standard is fully backward compatible with earlier DVI standards. New features include carrying auxiliary video information, such as aspect ratio and native video format information.

HDMI Arrives:
Final specifications were approved in late 2002 by seven developing companies for a newly enhanced form of DVI with HDCP called – the high definition multimedia interface (HDMI). This interface is used between any audio/video source, such as a set-top box, DVD player, or A/V receiver, and an audio or video monitor, such as a DTV. HDMI supports standard, enhanced or high-definition video, plus multi-channel digital audio on a single cable. The format transmits all ATSC HDTV standards and supports eight-channel digital audio (at up to a 192kHz sampling rate), with bandwidth to spare for future enhancements.

HDMI also uses a more compact and consumer electronics-friendly 15mm, 19-pin connector and will be fully compatible with the former DVD-HDCP standard.

HDCP – The DVI/HDMI Gatekeeper:
Not included as part of the HDMI standard – but widely understood to be a necessary compliment to the interface – was the Intel-developed HDCP protocol designed to protect HDMI and DVI signals from piracy.

A key advantage of HDMI is that when the individual devices are enabled, a single remote control can operate everything in a home theater system. The HDMI spec covers the conversion of video formats so that signals on a PC can be properly relayed for display on a TV monitor, for example. The audio stream is serialized and the data packetized for transmission along with the video signal. At the receiver, the two streams are segregated and the data is depacketized for playback.

Because the format was designed as a connection to send uncompressed digital video signals to TV displays, it does not facilitate home networking. Signals are relayed at a rate of 2.2 Gbps, sufficient for 1080i HDTV signals, although the spec allows for up to 5Gbps. The first HDMI products were introduced in late 2003 and it is rapidly being adopted by manufacturers to replace the old DVI connectors in models slated for arrival later in 2004.

Broadcasters Throw Broadcast Flag:
Another form of content protection that is soon to arrive is called the broadcast flag. Broadcasters and content producers pushed the FCC for years to mandate a system that would place an identifying bit inside a broadcast signal to tell properly enabled devices to restrict the transmission of that program over the Internet.

Many representatives of the broadcast, consumer electronics and content industries agreed on a broadcast flag system based on the Digital Transmission Content Protection (DTCP) technology that was developed for 1394 interfaces, but with added safeguards against Internet re-distribution.

On Nov. 4, 2003, the FCC proposed setting a standard for broadcast flag copy protection technology. This move gave content providers some assurance that digital programming would not be copied from over-the-air broadcasts and widely redistributed over the Internet. It also prevented some broadcasters from following through on threats to discontinue their HDTV broadcasts if a content protection system was not adopted for content broadcast over the air. The rules also extended broadcast flag protection to local television stations’ news and public affairs programming.

The proposed broadcast flag standard includes codes for digital rights management by tagging content with special copying limitations such as “Copy-Once,” “Copy-Freely” or “Copy-Never.” As of March 2004, the broadcast flag adoption procedure was still in a comment period before the FCC.

Adaptations for Digital Must Carry’ Rules Sought:
Broadcasters have urged legislators to amend standing regulations calling for the mandatory carriage of local over-the-air broadcast programming on analog cable systems (and satellite operators in markets served by local channels) to cover the new issues presented by digital television. Broadcasters have asked that their free, over-the-air digital signals be carried in their entirety without signal degradation, whether that involves standard definition, high-definition, multiple standard definition signals or other free over-the-air services to the consumer. Cable system operators, meanwhile, have argued that broadcasters should not be allowed to charge for redistribution of those signals over cable systems, as some stations suggested.

rest of article
http://www.ce.org/publications/book..._networking.asp

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05-10-2005, 02:33 PM

#13

57U

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mfabien

1. An HDTV user who has a DVR equipped with DVI or HDMI output will be able to record any program, Broadcast Flag or Not, without restriction.

2. Otherwise, if the connection is via Component and the program has a Broadcast Flag, then there may be a downrezzing to 480i, as explained previously.

1. Michel, you yourself said that you couldn't record a "flagged" (record never) programme a while back. A "record never" programme will be allowed into the recording buffer, but it will not be "recorded" for future viewing on the DVR. Remember there are 3 5C flags, not 2.

2. Yes, downrezzing is for component connections and it's 480P, not i, if ever it comes to fruition.

__________________
57U - Toronto, Rogers Cable, SA8300HD, 500GB HDD & Hitachi 61UWX10B HDTV, Yamaha RX-V1 A/V Receiver, Martin Logan Speakers. Photos --> 57U's HT

SA8300HD, 250GB HDD & KDL40W3000 (Upstairs)

Please don't PM me with questions that can (and should) be asked in the forum, thanks. Personal Question? Fire away.

05-10-2005, 05:32 PM

#14

mfabien

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 57U

If you recall this was the James Bond movie "Tomorrow Never Dies" in the spring of 2004 at CBSHD. I had lost the recording and talked to Videotron about it. One of the technical supervisor was in conversation with Scientific Atlanta and the supervisor repeated my question which was: "Did I lose the recording because my DVI was not active with my DVR". And the answer from SA was yes. This was not a "Never Copy" issue, it was rather coding associated with a first attempt (at least that was the thinking at SA) at using a Broadcast Flag, which required an HDCP compliant connection.

When the same movie was repeated by CBSHD towards the fall, last year, again I saw after the first hour of recording a red line replacing the normal green line. This time I ended my recording and saved it a few minutes before the scheduled end of the movie. And I kept that movie in the DVR for a few weeks. My guess was that CBSHD was conducting a second experiment. My DVI was still not active.

I can guarantee you the codes for "Never Copy, Copy Once and Copy Free" have nothing to do with the Broadcast Flag. Read the MPAA Broadcast Flag link I provided above and it clearly states that the Broadcast Flag is not designed to block the recording of any flagged program, for a DVR, provided a compliant connection is used, meaning DVI or HDMI which are both HDCP compliant.

Last edited by mfabien : 05-10-2005 at 05:34 PM.

05-10-2005, 06:46 PM	#15
57U Runner/Cyclist/X-C Skier Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 17,115	OK, I guess we'll have to disagree for now and see how it all plays out. __________________ 57U - Toronto, Rogers Cable, SA8300HD, 500GB HDD & Hitachi 61UWX10B HDTV, Yamaha RX-V1 A/V Receiver, Martin Logan Speakers. Photos --> 57U's HT SA8300HD, 250GB HDD & KDL40W3000 (Upstairs) Please don't PM me with questions that can (and should) be asked in the forum, thanks. Personal Question? Fire away.

05-11-2005, 08:34 AM	#16
mfabien Reged User Tier 2 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Montreal Posts: 732	Concerning the Appeal's Court decision against the FCC's rule on November 2003 on the Broadcast Flag, http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/docs...05/04-1037b.pdf First, this concerns Over The Air DTV transmission only. As for Electronic manufacturers, they are now manufacturing all their HDTV's with HDCP input connections (DVI or HDMI), and, like anything else in mass production, it now costs less to include this than to split production and manufacturer some without HDCP simply because they now have a right to do so after July 1, 2005. And would stores be willing to set separate HDTV inventories and display areas for: «HDTV for OTA without HDCP» «HDTV for cable and satellite signals with HDCP» My guess is that the Appeals Court's decision will prompt action in Congress in no time (perhaps as an inclusion in current outstanding legislation to change the analog deadline date of December 31, 2006). One way or the other, HDCP is here to stay and the Broadcast Flag will be a reality before the end of the year, I would guess. 57U, You are the best HDTV Forum moderator in both the US and Canada. Your knowledge is exceptional and your assistance is priceless, including quite often to myself. But in this single instance, you are wrong (which only proves you are human like all of us) to associate the DTCP flags of "Copy Never", "Copy Once" and "Copy Free" as the consequence of the "Broadcast Flag" which concerns transmission of HD signal via digital HDCP content protection. An HDTV user who has a DVR with HDCP compliant connection to the TV will never ever lose a recording of a movie or a program because of HDCP. And therefore, your FAQ on recording should be amended accordingly. Last edited by mfabien : 05-11-2005 at 08:39 AM.

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05-11-2005, 09:36 AM

#17

57U

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mfabien

...your FAQ on recording should be amended accordingly.

I've reread the FAQ and I don't mention "Broadcast" or "HDCP". I mention "flags" only regarding the possible limiting of recording of HD programmes.

These "flags" (0, 1, 2 - I believe) are currently incorrectly in use in some areas of Shaw Cable, preventing further recording of all HD signals. So they exist, even if currently used incorrectly. I believe these flags are also in place in parts of the US, limiting the recording of premium HD programming onto HTPCs.

I will think about whether the FAQ requires modification based on what you have said and based on the above.

05-11-2005, 10:47 AM

#18

mfabien

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 57U

... I believe these flags are also in place in parts of the US, limiting the recording of premium HD programming onto HTPCs.

I will think about whether the FAQ requires modification based on what you have said and based on the above.

Could it be that the HTCP access to HD programming could be via Firewire IEEE-1394 connection? If so, then that becomes a DTCP action, as required.

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